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F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

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holden
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby holden » Fri May 20, 2016 8:45 am

ok, finally i installed/tested the diablo line first on my elf joker5 11 then on the joker6 15. i will only talk about the 11er because i the wind went down to nothing when i started to trim the 15. i tested the 11er on the beach and on water with my foilboard. the wind was at the lower side of the range, maybe 8 to 10 kn.

first impression: i love it! it seems to combine all the good. i set it up so it would engage when the backlines are pulled around 8cm beyond neutral. and i trimed Z (around 4cm, not counting the ammount you have to add due to the extra knot in your Z line) longer. the longer Zs lead to an overall faster flying kite with nice steerability and stability when depowered. and the diablo line prevents the backstall it would have massively with this Z trim. plus it gives you the extra kick. bar pressure increases, but not too bad in fact i like that too, because it gives you a nice feedback as if the kite tells you that you are draining power that eventually will slow your kite down.

@foilholio: you are a few steps further in your testing. i will definately check the relaunch issues. the main difference between wac and diablo line is, that the wacline only effects B and the diablo both, B and C (C twice as much as B). for me, one of the main advantages of the diablo is, that i can trim the kite a lot faster and better for upwind with no need to worry about backstalls when powering the kite. i doubt the wac can do this the way the diablo line can. what kites do you use for your tests?

there are two parameters you can play around with: when does the diabolo line engage and how do you trim your Z. i need to find my favorite combination.

h.

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Fri May 20, 2016 12:00 pm

Interesting you backed Z off and countered the negatives with the Diablo line. I did much the same with the WAC on my A15. I have actually made a couple more posts about my use of a WAC line on my A15 in viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2391108&start=160 here they all are I think ;-)
foilholio wrote:I tested out a wac line on my A15. I set it to engage at B 7cm longer than A. In the air I can see when A main goes slack, it seems about right but I will have to compare with my flysurfer one. The kite cambers quite extremely combined with my shortening of Z. I was quite enjoying it, and then random tip collapses started occurring. I landed the kite and lengthened Z 4cm moving it back to the knot, the tip collapsing disappeared . Much later on it returned though but lessened. Overall I quite like WAC on the A15 it gives it a lot more punch. Relaunch also seems much better with it. It can be quite hard getting large foils to accelerate thru waves but extra camber really does wonders.
foilholio wrote:I took it for another ride and left the WAC and Z adjustment as before, I am quite happy with it like this now. It only tip collapsed once on me. I noticed it happens when I shocked the bar in and out. Overall I think I prefer it like this as a bit of tip collapse is not an issue. The kite is very hard to stall, where I pull the bar in and I normally get back stall I now just get massive amounts of ballsy grunt. The kite now feels way more grunty than even the 22 aurora ever did. Bar pressure is increased sheeted in but so is the response and feeling. The kite seems to pivot nicely. With it more depowered the bar pressure is much the same as before and the kites profile is much the same too, so riding upwind is quite pleasant and fast. One negative with how I have the kite setup is I think the drift is better with less camber. I have notice a more reflex or slack Z gives better drift on my other foils. Having said that I think the drift on my A15 setup like this is probably untouched by any other kite. Reverse landing with a wac throws more pressure onto the rears but the kite back stalls much better and sits on the ground flatter with less pull. I am really impressed with the stability of the A15, quite often I just let go of the bar and ride hands free for upwards of 30seconds at a time. It definitely has a bit of autozenith, it holds almost still at the side of the window or over head. Really leaves me a bit shocked that the kite I almost had been dreaming about has arrived and it's so cheap and it didn't come from flysurfer :-0 wow how did this happen?
Yes I guess I am a few steps ahead. There is definitely relaunch and reverse landing issues with the diablo line. With relaunch and reverse landing benefits (with a negative) for the WAC. No definitely no, the WAC does not only effect B. I think it is a bit hard to quite understand exactly how it interacts with the mixer, may be someone will do a diagram, but it has much the same benefits of the diablo line, in fact more so I think ,and the two can be combined to double the effect. The WAC line locks A and B together. This then increases the ratio C and Z are pulled in relation to A and B. The effective ratio becomes A0 B0 C2 Z6 vs diablo line A0 B1 C2 Z6. The difference is Z is always at a higher ratio with the WAC line. With the diablo line eventually C and Z become locked in balance, Z becoming a lower ratio and C higher. There is one other large difference between them, diablo multiples Z more than the rear line pulled and WAC reduces it. The net effect is diablo has slightly better response and requires less bar throw. With R for rearline it can be represented with this ratio for WAC A1 B1 C2 Z4 R4 and for diablo line A0 B1 C2 Z6~ R4. The extra bar throw on a WAC could be looked as a benefit or a negative. It creates a wider stall point at the bar easier to feel and harder to stall. The other benefit is WAC pulls on A making the turns better. And just to reinforce it again at some point the diable line ratios reduce, you are effectively pulling on C and Z as if they were on a locked bridle on the rear of the kite. The WAC does not do this and you continue to get increases in camber till the kite reverses flight. The diablo could reduce the tendency to "backstall" more, but what is actually happening is the kite has lost some of it's ability to reverse and the associated performance near that point. WAC is also much simpler with just a line joining A to B, with even simpler sliding variations possible.

The ratio changes with a WAC are much the same as a diablo line, so combining it with a flatter or negative camber is just as possible. You should also able to combine both together with even more negative camber on the kite.

I have tested WAC with all the previous flysurfer models obviously, but recently with the pyscho4-6, genesis 6 and A15-18. Diablo line only with the pyscho4-6 and genesis, but I think it will work really well with the A15.

You are correct ,as we have discussed, the point were these things engage is interesting. I have found on my flysurfer the all even ABCZ is a critical point to maintain for performance like upwind. Though obviously variations could still be tried. The settings on the mixer are also something that can be adjusted with it as well, as you say change the Z length.

There is a third yet untried mod, I mentioned it before, run an extra set of front lines to connect to the front of the C pulley line independently. Setup on an independent trimmer or placed on a trim system that trims and mixes the two sets of front lines, many trim states on the kite become possible and this can even then still be combined with a WAC and or diablo line :-) wow. I see applications for racing particularly with this, the 4 front lines could be optimized in strength and drag to be much thinner than just using the regular front line material.

holden
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby holden » Fri May 20, 2016 1:22 pm

ok, if we compare and describe our findings, we need to keep in mind that the joker and the a15 have quite different characteristics. so one big issue (good or bad) with one kite might not have the same impact with the other.

i will stay with the diablo line for now and will try to catch up a bit with my testing.

h.

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Fri May 20, 2016 2:03 pm

A while ago I compared the WAC and Diablo line back to back on the pyscho4-6. The end result was I much preferred the WAC. On paper they produce much the same effect, with the WAC being better past a certain point. In use they are slightly different, with some rather large shortfalls for the diablo line. If you ever do compare them back to back just make sure they both engage at the same point and you have enough trim range to fully use the WAC.

Yes the joker and A15 are a bit different. The A15 bridle attachments are in very unusual places, B is almost in the middle, C is also very far back. because of that the diablo line will work better with the A15 than other foils with the bridles further forward. I think in someway it is also better suited to a WAC and pulley bars, mainly because the bar pressure is so light. Maybe a WAC would form a better camber curve with the B further forward but it still works well on my A15.
Last edited by foilholio on Mon May 23, 2016 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

holden
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby holden » Mon May 23, 2016 9:28 am

i did a drawing with a wac-mixer and as i see it now, i might be wrong again, it is more like A gets fixed to B than the other way around. meaning that the line between the wac line and the frontline goes slack.

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Mon May 23, 2016 10:21 am

The only person who is wrong is the one who never believes he is.

Yes B pulley pulls on A, the effect is A and B are stuck together. When this occurs the A main that connects A to the front line goes slack, which is quite easy to see. When the Kite is depowered the WAC line goes slack, which is not easy to see. The effects are really similar between a Diablo line and a WAC. I feel the WAC has the edge but as I said the two can be combined which may have potential for hydrofoilers.

holden
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby holden » Mon May 23, 2016 10:49 am

:-)
ok, so i will risk being wrong again, then by doing some calculations:
mixers can be described like this:
4:2 which is short for 4:2:1 which is short for 0:4:2:1
meaning, if A stays (0) and Z gets hauled in 1 the B travels one fourth of Z. C travels one half of Z. so actually the relations would more correctly have to be written something like this:
A(0) B(1/4) C(1/2) Z(1)
from this formula you can calculate any value. if you want to know how much B travels if you let your backlines go 35mm, you get B: -8.75mm
when the wac-line kicks in, the 0:4:2:1 mixer changes to a 4:4:2:1 mixer. or, better, a A(1/4) B(1/4) C(1/2) Z(1) mixer. since we want comparable mixers we need A to be 0 and Z to be 1. to get A back to 0 we need to subtract 1/4 from every value: A(0) B(0) C(1/4) Z(3/4). then we multiply by 4/3 to get Z back to 1. this makes it a A(0) B(0) C(4/12) Z(1), A(0) B(0) C(1/3) Z(1) or simple 0:3:1

so if my calculations are correct the mixer changes from a 4:2:1 to a 0:3:1 mixer.
Last edited by holden on Mon May 23, 2016 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

holden
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby holden » Mon May 23, 2016 12:23 pm

now we come to the diablo mixer...

when the diablo line kicks in the mixer changes from a A(0) B(1/4) C(1/2) Z(1) to a A(0) B(1/4) C(1/2) Z(1.5) mixer, since the Z lines of the kite get pulled in not the amount you pull in the backlines, but 1.5 times as much. written in fractions it is A(0) B(1/4) C(1/2) Z(3/2). to get Z back to 1 we multipy by 2/3 and we get A(0) B(1/6) C(1/3) Z(1)
so it turns from a 0:4:2:1 to a 0:6:3:1 mixer.

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Mon May 23, 2016 12:58 pm

Ok so while I was typing this you went and changed your reply, but some of it is still relevant so I will post it.



I say 421 meaning to change Z 4 changes C 2 and B 1, A never changes. It should be correctly written as 4:2:1. The ":" symbol means "to" or "there is this amount when there is that amount" ,a comparison. So 4 amounts of one thing is 2 of another and 1 of something else. Your way is fine, except when you try to understand things like the wac or even just the mixer it is better to use ratios and not fractions mixed up with ratios. A ratio is much simpler.

https://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/ratio.html

If you let me try explain it my way. 4:2:1 becomes with WAC 4:2:1:1. Subtract 1 becomes 3:1:0:0 or 3:1:0 or 3:1, doesn't matter 0 never changes. If you pull Z 12 C 6 B 3 and A 3, then subtract 3 from all you get Z9 C3 B0 A0. Divide Z9 and C3 by 3 and you get 3 and 1. If you take 3:1:0 and multiple it by 2, it becomes 6:2:0, which you can then compare better with the diablo line which is something less than 6:2:1. The ratio between Z and C is not fixed in the diablo line. Which is why it has reverse flying problems. Off the top of my head I think it would eventually become 4:4:2 or 2:2:1.

The reason I subtract from the 4211 to become 310 or 620, is I am interested in the state or shape of the wing. The base line or zero for this is from A. So if A has changed all the others need to as well. But because A does indeed become shorter there is a turning advantage for the WAC but not a response because it requires much more bar throw.


Edited to remove reference to holdens old post.
Last edited by foilholio on Mon May 23, 2016 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Mon May 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Hopefully we can settle on how to write ratios because your way is spinning my head. Come on! you are mixing fractions and decimals in a ratio. My eyes! lol


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