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The Pansh A15, an A18 review

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foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:34 pm

Kiter_from_Germany wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:27 pm
a15 in 18m:
Interestingly b56 plays a role in High wind stability.
I've had some very interesting trim sessions,
where I came up with some results regarding inner bridle readjustments.
Am on my way to let b56 in B, letting c56 in C
and letting z5678 in Z.
Why back to the roots?
Better for turning agility on big kites and I solved the stability issues I faced on my way to v1.0 and v1.1.
Main part is that you need to adjust b56 and c56, because they are responsible for dramatic tipstalls in original setup.

Main task: trim on depower instead of power positions (inner gear changings are not linear through changing from regular to backweighted mixer - I am understanding it for now, can trim even slightly frontbend tension lines now).
Will discuss it when Im ready.

Surprising results in last tweakings.
No calculations possible every line had to be flown to optimization.
For being able looking in the bridles, I made a 10m bar.
Next time on the water I gonna recheck adjustments.
For now result is for a15/18m
velocity: good
depower: much better than original
static pull: nice
turning: loops on 10m lines (very good for 18m)
stability: as original

overall: a 'new kite'

exemplarily pic of my outsleeved lines (this is how I test reconnecting and length variations by simple knotting)
here: b56
IMG_5702.JPG

c56:
IMG_5707.JPG


now pigtail of a67 and a89 (one pigtail for two lines):
IMG_5705.JPG

mega LCLs of a8 and a9 (same length):
IMG_5706.JPG

z5678:
IMG_5711.JPG

I will document this stuff after getting high wind check on the water... (Unfortunately this takes time and occasional wind, maybe in upto 3 weeks?)
Any update?


I stumbled on this which has a back weighted mixer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeSSxuYuwNw

Regis-de-giens
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:37 pm

I did comparable modifications on Adam ( 1 year before in 2014 but same kite I suppose) if you need further informations :
phpBB [video]

With some trigonometric projections and "De-camberization" (4 lines power kite can accept higher camber than depower kites) it worked well and became a good trainer kite that I still use.

foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:03 am

I am more interested in KiterfromGermany's use of a "Back weighted mixer" and also his bridle adjustments to different parts of the mixer. What do you think of the back weighted mixer Regis?

Regis-de-giens
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Style: 62 kg , light wind
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foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:12 pm

Sorry but what is a back weighted mixer ? Translation in french gives nothing i understand.

foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:27 am

A "back weighted mixer" is the name of a mixer KiterfromGermany used with success on his 2 A15 kites a 12m and 18m. I stumbled on that youtube video from 2015 where also a backweighted mixer is used. Here it is again.
phpBB [video]


Now just let me screen cap the frame, rather than draw an amusing mspaint picture for Kami. Who doesn't like trees? (insider joke).
backweighted mixer.jpg
backweighted mixer.jpg (43.13 KiB) Viewed 2400 times
It basically ups the ratio on B and C from your 421 to 432 (and would give a great arm workout too not just the hand either). The double ratio on B should significantly reduce bar travel and would be especially suited to a kite like the A15 with the B row in the middle of the kite .

Regis-de-giens
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Style: 62 kg , light wind
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foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:54 am

Ah ok I did not catch that particular "inversion"in this speed system, so my video is out-of-topic sorry;

Also interested to get any feedback, because on the paper I see no interest in this for a kite originally designed for a standard mixer test (so having a C bridle attachement near the middle of the chord). This should decrease to much the camber while sheeting-in I think.

foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:40 pm

It was a little off topic, I gathered from you posting it you may have missed something :-)

Yes camber will potentially be decreased, but my thinking is that you could compensate by lengthening C some. I see some potential for use with standard bridle row placements, the Adam is pretty standard and it seems ok in that video. I would guess response, turn rate and feel will be better. KiterfromGermany gets excellent turning on his A15 videos.

There is also the bridle modifications KiterfromGermany did, which is to transition the bride rows towards the tips to other parts of the mixer with lower ratios. This is quite advanced, flysurfer just started using it on the Sonic Race. As on the Sonic Race there is potential for extra pulleys. It should make the tips significantly more stable which has been a general problem on foils. With more stable tips the kite could then be pushed for more camber overall.

Kiter_from_Germany
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Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: North Dice 10,ozone catalyst 14, Slingshot Turbine 17m and others
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Anton MTrain, (strapless) Directionals
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Mon May 28, 2018 2:31 pm

foilholio wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:40 pm
It was a little off topic, I gathered from you posting it you may have missed something :-)

Yes camber will potentially be decreased, but my thinking is that you could compensate by lengthening C some. I see some potential for use with standard bridle row placements, the Adam is pretty standard and it seems ok in that video. I would guess response, turn rate and feel will be better. KiterfromGermany gets excellent turning on his A15 videos.

There is also the bridle modifications KiterfromGermany did, which is to transition the bride rows towards the tips to other parts of the mixer with lower ratios. This is quite advanced, flysurfer just started using it on the Sonic Race. As on the Sonic Race there is potential for extra pulleys. It should make the tips significantly more stable which has been a general problem on foils. With more stable tips the kite could then be pushed for more camber overall.
Hi together,
back again...
had stoppd my tweaks last yr. till my last vacations this may:
I had a pretty light wind week so I continued in tweaking my 18m panshi.

Update to actual situation:
Based on backweighted mixer I fly a slightly more open A15/18m (more open tips, the thing with the Mega ECLs) .
Stability is back to flysurfers trimmed S3, I would say (Stability trim which I showed in V1.0 on youtube is bad for light wind performance...)
So based on V1.1 I added:
I got some understanding how to get rid of weak Z to make it help in lowwind peformance.
So I trimmed Z which helped A LOT in LW performance.
Flying results are pretty impressive so far, bar throw (60cm bar) still acceptable, agility ok (loopable from zenit on 25m lines)

I will give you a complete change summary and some vids next weeks.

I would have been ready for filming last week already, but last check-session, this is what happened:
Was on the water in gusty lowind and had a riding downloop, when it made rrrruuurupruprup - and some bridle lines teared... - back to the beach :o :cry: :evil:

I cant tell you what happend exactly (which line broke first), but I think the adjustment knot on my line length adjustment adapter (which I knotted single) where torn apart. After that, some lines broke by overload, would assume. (to all the others out there: DON'T USE SINGLE KNOTS, USE FIGURE EIGHT KNOTS under those circumstancas...! :nono: )
Result: I ordered High Performance Liros lines (DC201) to make all A and B collection lines new (from second index level up, a67 for exp.) - so a nice day of brummel splicing fun ahead!
:thumb:
Last edited by Kiter_from_Germany on Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Mon May 28, 2018 3:07 pm

Good to hear from you again.

You lost me a bit with what you mean by more open? open at the tips? Did you alter the arc of the kite?

Z and camber has a big effect on power in lightwind. Upwind and stability are a sacrifice. I have found it best to switch settings for the conditions. For absolute low end you really can't have gusty winds otherwise a kite tuned to very high camber is too hard to use.

Kiter_from_Germany
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Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: North Dice 10,ozone catalyst 14, Slingshot Turbine 17m and others
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Anton MTrain, (strapless) Directionals
Brand Affiliation: none

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Mon May 28, 2018 5:54 pm

foilholio wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:07 pm
Good to hear from you again.

You lost me a bit with what you mean by more open? open at the tips? Did you alter the arc of the kite?

Z and camber has a big effect on power in lightwind. Upwind and stability are a sacrifice. I have found it best to switch settings for the conditions. For absolute low end you really can't have gusty winds otherwise a kite tuned to very high camber is too hard to use.
yes the tips are more open, I ‚changed the arc‘.
I quoted this because I changed arcs by simple extension of outer collection lines (a67, b78, c78...)
so result will be an inner and a tip arc.
The overall arc will be slightly flatter...

Z:
As you mentioned: a well trimmed Z will boost Kite performance - so it is essential to have a proper C/Z engagement, I found too.
The general way to trim this is not by adjusting the mixer, Instead adjusting z1234 an z5678 seperately:
You can shorten z1234 to work proper with c bridle, but z5678 has to (more or less) stay as it is, to avoid tipstall (trivial, but essential.)
Let me do the line rebuild. I will generate a tweak plan based on the original setup.
Changes are mostely as described in former posts (v1.1), but extension values are getting more solid after tests/checks...
BR
Rupert


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