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the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wind

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kitexpert
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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby kitexpert » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:51 pm

foilholio wrote:It is quite simple. It rearranges the pulleys to double all the ratios. End result half the bar throw and double the pressure. Ingeniously simple when you think about it. Applied to kites like the A15 it could be very good. I am now imagining if a kite is designed more to use this? I.e. move BCZ all further back. I feel you could then get more camber change like the diablo line. Reasoning for it is that the forward positions of BC on most kites seems to allow them to distort too soon before Z is pulled enough with a standard mixer.

I am keen to try it. Will let you know after I have.
No, Malabar does not change how camber changes when AoA changes. It just doubles all pulling ratios.

A15's B and C positions are far back. They should be pulled more than normally in relation to Z. Now they are pulled quite little, so AoA change in that area of kite is smaller than usual. On the other hand, A15 design increases camber more than usual, because Z is still pulled normally.

Because big A15's have smaller AR than for example Speeds, they have a very big chord lenght. If goal is large AoA change range but not uncomfortably long bar movement, Malabar may be a good solution, if not only possibility.

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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby foilholio » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:51 am

I didn't say Malabar changes camber. I said you could change camber by moving BCZ further back on the kite.

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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:32 am

Indeed I think we are all agree : camber evolution with rider action on the bar depends on kite design and will not be impacted by Malabar. Just another remark : Malabar correct functionning requires that tension in A bridles is higher than in Z bridles, so that Z will not pull on A bridles up to


@Kite-expert: I have two humble additional comments:

- I think you will actually never reach 0 tension in Z bridles in real ride configuration, since trim stroke is limited (and especially on bigger kites). And even if you add stroke for more tension release abilities (like Malabar or longer trim strap for example), you will still catch a little tension due to drag on rear lines. Hence Zero tension is never a functional point in real water-ride conditions. In that configuration with a Tension >0 , Malabar will add some control and depower (since Z tension will be only half of the permanent tension on rear line imposed by drag).

- minimum AoA is not only a kite design parameter and also depends on wind configuration: the acceptable AoA can be closer to zero if the wind is regular (or if the kite B&C bridles are shorten for "stable" configuration), while you need to increase a bit this AoA to avoid frontstalls if the wind is gusty (or if B&C bridles are extended a bit for "power" configuration). So as I tried to say previously "playing" with the minimum AoA when bar is fully pulled (e.g. using trim strap or taking care of bar pulling stroke) can still be useful, depending on rider's preferences, ride conditions and skills (to avoid instabilities). We certainly agree, it may be just a different way of presenting things.
foilholio wrote:I am keen to try it. Will let you know after I have.
I'm thrilled to hear from it ! Some others tips I was thinking to, before you try:

- some length adjustment knots shall be located to allow for ABCZ alignment after Malabar installation. For example on B&C which is the most simple.

- I would add a "floating" "8" knot on the new C pulley line (SPL) near the connection with A knot. This might be useful if you notice a problem for reverse relaunch (by relocating this knot closer to the pulley and thus limit Z bridle excursion). You can more easily try this mitigation without dismantling the Malabar if the 8 knot is already done somewhere on the SPL.

- for my Malabar on the 19m, I re-used the existing pulleys and SPL of the previous mixer. Otherwise you can fully build the new speed system mounted in Malabar (with new pulleys + SPL + connection line of C pulley on rear lines) to "easy" :-? swap from one to the other .

- just remember to take a photo of your existing ABCZ alignement (or not) to reproduce the same (obvious, sorry but you should not forget to compare properly)

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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby foilholio » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:21 am

I did try a version of this before viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2390597&start=40 I cant remember the exact results, I don't think I tested relaunch yet with it.

I connect the new Z pulley line to the top of A main. Look at 1st mixer in pic. I wonder would there be much difference connecting it to the Front main. Relaunch has me worried a bit.

As to how to configure a Malabar mixer I have a number of ideas in my head.
malabars.jpg
malabars.jpg (61.46 KiB) Viewed 603 times
3,4,5 seem most valid solutions. I was trying to think how much Z needs to be extended. It should be roughly a little more than B? I think current mixers extend Z so much as a result of the way they extend C and B.

I think the simplest path using mostly existing components might be 2 or 3. Regis how did you convert your 22 Aurora mixer? I think I will make some temporary mods to test relaunch before I go moving stuff around.

If somehow a regular mixer could be combined with a malabar, to give short depower range, but light bar pressure powered that would be nice.

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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:45 am

Thanks for sharing !

Solution 1 will change your camber when powering (quite close to the f-one diablo philosophy), hence the a18 behaviour will be very different (contrary to Malabar). I would bet it is a major and too exagerated modification since for a Z pulled of 40cm you will have C pulled of only 10 cm and B pulled of 5cm, hence equivalent to a mixer test set to C=-10 and B=-5 when powered, which seems too high at first sight. Bar pressure will be in-between (more than standard but less than twice standard). I would bet that turning of the kite will be as good as Malabar (and maybe even better) however the performance of the kite (L/D ratio and up-wind capacity) will be badly impacted when powered. This could be a problem if you don't use a hydrofoil. On Diablo this special Z driving appears only at the end of bar pulling stroke, not all along like for your solution 1 (which is still worse testing of course : -) )

Solution 2 to 5 are all equivalent to Malabar and will lead to same twice bar pressure and kite preserved camber. I would avoid solution 2 due to cross lines (wear, loss in control precision and a bit higher bar pressure during dynamic pulling action fron rider).

I do not see any difference between 4 and 5 which are my prefered one(s).

I upgraded the mixer of my Aurora V1 with settable B and C and changed original metallic pulleys and SPL (flysurfer type) but no Malabar (only pulley bar). I have put a malabar on an old speed2 19m modified in single skin, by using existing mixer test parts. It was in your solution3-4-5 philosophy but as I said previously, I removed B pulley and connected it to A (so 3-4-5 becomes exactly the same). That is what you can see on the 4 pictures I provided earlier.
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby foilholio » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:02 am

Yes the 1st isn't a malabar I just included it to show what I did on the diablo line thread.

Ok thanks I thought you used it on the 22.

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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:12 am

for Aurora : no indeed, only the turbo-pulley bar. Sorry for repetition but for clarity : Malabar should lead to the same kite behaviour and bar pressure (and even better thanks to 2 less pulleys and more tensioned rear lines)

OK for solution 1 extracted from diablo thread, understood. I will read this post : -)

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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby foilholio » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:46 pm

Kiter_from_Germany wrote: Hello from Germany!
From buying (and still waiting for) a Pansh A15 ME in 18m I scan the web for entries regarding this interesting and reasonable kite. So I found this discussion about Mixer Systems in general and variations/spaces for improvements.
Due to the fact that Pansh A15 shall need low steering forces there may be a good try for implementing the malabar mixer, which Regis-de-giens describes in his quote.

In conventional mixer setups you see A and Z Lines are connected to the flying/steering lines. I always wonder why that is ,seems to be a design rule - lets break it!.

In Malabar we see the first time break up, because C is getting the steering line input.
But - Is there even more variation possible?
From an aerodynamic point of view I would say that the main force (generated through the kite's underpressure system) is morely at the B position.
Why don't we think the flying line connection positioned under position B?
In such a design we have just to invert the movement of A (If C goes down, A has to go up for good performance). So, the A point in this design approach would be supplied via a B-positioned pulley through the deviation of C Line!
The result is an anticyclic movement of C and A around B. Due to the fact that C and Z are in their connection system, this all results in a twisting movement of the complete wing around point B - With an improved Kite depower or turning performance!

So we now are ng a complete set of Mixer systems:
Conventional (A and Z attached to lines) -> 100 % Movement/Forces
Convential_B (B and Z attached to lines150% Movement/Forces <- also nice!
Malabar (A and C attached to lines)-> ca. 200% Movement/Forces
Malabar_Zimmermann (B and C attached, lets name it this way :o)-> ca. 300% Movement/Forces
... with the right Pulley setup of course.
Let me know your thoughts, I will go and paint it for you tonight!
678.jpg
678.jpg (17.91 KiB) Viewed 458 times
I believe yours is 8. Lets see 6 has 400%, 7/ 800%, 8 I am not sure. I dont see 8 working because the kite will never be able to depower. The forces between A and C will equalize and the kite will remain powered, I guess.

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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby kitexpert » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:54 am

Wow, it seems like this is getting out of control... Changes to Regis's Malabar are unnecessary, it is ready and simplest possible concept for those pulling ratios. But you never know if some crazy idea is somehow useful or might lead to something better...

Speedsystems are not magical tricks which can make not so good kite a brilliant kite. Original designers are not idiots, 1:2:4 is not used by accident. Extreme pulling ratios are needed only for biggest foilkites (if even them). Malabar is efficient enough at least for 3m chords, which equals roughly 30m2 kite. For smaller kites it is close to be too much, trying it in practice is of course best way to find out.

"If somehow a regular mixer could be combined with a malabar, to give short depower range, but light bar pressure powered that would be nice." -foilholio

You can't always get what you want :lol: As you know pulleysystems are leverages: if you cut travel to half you must double the force. To increase AoA of a kite some work must be done, how big that work is does not have any connection to speedsystem (if friction differences are not included).

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Re: the "Malabar" mixer test for large foilkites in light wi

Postby foilholio » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:39 am

Jesus settle down. It's only a bit of discussion. Um Regis has only implemented the Malabar once, and he is not even sure it fully functions, i.e. if relaunch works. This I will test shortly but I have my doubts it will work as well.

Mixers are magic, a concept seemingly lost on you. They can radically change how the kite flys. Some kite designers are idiots. I met one from one of the big brands ,while he was designing foil kites, that couldn't understand how they worked!

The Malabar would not be just applicable to large kites but small as well. If you want short throw and are willing for more bar pressure then it's an option.

It is possible to engage disengage parts of the mixer, just look at the diablo line. How this would be done in reverse. If it could be done simply,or at all, has yet to come to me.

Do you ever test any of these ideas? Or do you just like to comment a lot? Have you tested the diablo line yet?


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