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The Monjet Ninox

For all foil kite riders


Sombra
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Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:24 pm
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Local Beach: Castelldefels
Gear: Spleene boards
Zeeko B&W Foil - Carver wing
FLYSURFER Speed 3, 21
Speed 4 18
Storm Voyager III 15
Core 13,5
Reo 10 / 7
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Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby Sombra » Sun May 06, 2018 10:28 am

Hi

@BOEMIX
Do you own a Peak? Which size? Do you tried it once for foiling?
Can you compare it with one of your other kites in meaning of power.

I would accept, that it is not relaunchable. Where is the problem? In very low wind I very seldom throw the kite in the water. And if it happens, you wind the lines up, take the kite, swim bag and start it. I do not see the problem as it can not get filled with water the swim will be short.

But I was reading in other comments, that the flying characteristics of the Peak (and other single skin kites) is not very suitable for hydrofoiling. Very poor depower (in meaning of more on/off ), narrow windrange, very slow turning.


I’m very surprised that there is almost nobody trying it. There is only one video in YouTube from Kitefinder trying this combination of Hydrofoil and Peak. And they reported an amaizing lowend.

Thanks a lot

mikesids
Medium Poster
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:15 pm
Kiting since: 2006
Local Beach: Pt Chev, Auckland
Favorite Beaches: Aitutaki lagoon, Cook Islands
Style: Foil, surf, speed, jumping, freestyle
Gear: F One Furtives for speed, Airush Ultra's for freeride foiling , Chrono UL 11 / 15 for freerace foiling, Reo 5, Park 8/10/14, Bandit X ( 12m), Union 9m , JShapes Foil, Levitaz Aspect foil, Zeeko Spitfire XLW foil, Naish Skater, F One AC21 Speed boards, Groove Skate
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby mikesids » Sun May 06, 2018 10:33 am

For what its worth I have been playing with a Gin Shaman 9m for foiling in very light winds - I was very inspired after watching the video of the guy on a 6m in 10 knots in the Sinai ( check Vimeo) . So far I have been out 3 times , including today. All sessions have been 5 -10knots to start with . My feedback so far:

- Kite is super stable , at zenith and at edge of window. No tip tuck. Ever. I have Chrono UL's but I won't use them at my local spot , I go further up the coast to a coastal beach to use them where the breeze is more stable. At my local ( an inner harbour spot which is pretty gusty) I launch the Shaman on a grass paddock then walk through a 30m carpark past trees , then around 100m across sand to the water's edge - its the only kite I have ( and I have lots ) that I feel sufficiently confident in its overhead stability to walk through the carpark. If the kite dropped it would be into the trees and so far it has never even looked like dropping, even when the wind is up and down while I am walking. I really trust it.
- The first time and third times out the kite stayed dry for the entire session and never gave me any issues whatsoever , even though the wind was up and down ( lulls to 5/6 knots and gusting to 10ish as mentioned). I was the only one out , was on a Zeeko Air race board with J Shapes Cruzer foil ( 1060cm2 area). I don't do any fancy manoeuvres though , just cruise around - still getting the hang of the kite and its ultimate limits
- second time out I sailed into a hole ( maybe 3 knots) and kite fell out of the sky. On this day I think the wind was less stable than sessions one and three , and I was probably a bit too optimistic - I rode a gust out (7-8kts) then got skunked. No hope of relaunch , so I packed down and a big swim home ensued.
- the Shaman is really powerful - it really pulls in the harness when you launch it. Good for getting up on board. At 10 knots I have a lot of depower on. They say single skins are powerful for their size and I would agree - apparently the 9m Shaman has the power of a 11m regular foil kite and that would be my experience
- it doesn't rattle in the turns at all so I guess the "closed cells" at the wingtips are doing their job

I have adopted the approach that Boemix mentions above ie a superlight kite is the least likely of all to drop into the water in a lull in the first place, and if it does well you are in for a swim anyway, just like you would be with any other kite. The 9m Shaman weighs 1.3kg, nothing else that I have comes close - I also have Airush Ultras in sizes 9 and 12 which weigh 2.3 and 2.8kg respectively. They are great but a single skin takes the weight thing to a whole other level. That being said I don't go out too far when it is really light and there's potential for lulls.

I should point out finally that the nice folk at Gin did make the point when I ordered my Shaman that it was not designed for water use - duly noted ;-). If they enclosed the leading edge and end cells it would be an even more amazing water kite in my opinion. I have been waiting and hoping for some progress from Monjet but it has all gone quiet unfortunately , so I bought the Shaman in the meantime as what I considered to be the next best option. So far it has done what I hoped it would ie get me out on the absolute lightest of days. I am glad I got the 9m , I think I would get overpowered very early on the 12.

Hope this helps.

Sombra
Rare Poster
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:24 pm
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: Castelldefels
Gear: Spleene boards
Zeeko B&W Foil - Carver wing
FLYSURFER Speed 3, 21
Speed 4 18
Storm Voyager III 15
Core 13,5
Reo 10 / 7
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby Sombra » Sun May 06, 2018 11:00 am

@Mikesids
Talking about lowend for foiling. Your existing kites in sence of power, which one would be the comparable from your quiver.
What is your weight? Using a Chrono 15UL let me think that you are in the 90-100kg range. (If you use it for foiling)
Is the gin shaman comparable to the Chrono in flight characteristics?
If you accept that the kite is not relaunchable, is it suitable for foiling?

Thank you very much

foilholio
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Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby foilholio » Sun May 06, 2018 1:13 pm

phpBB [video]


That video is pretty fucking progressive , mono foiling? with a single skin in what looks like less than 10knots. What I will say is single skins are THE most powerful grunty kites you can experience. Upwind is not the best but compared to an inflato ok I guess. I would think they are the perfect fit for some freeride hydrofoiling and maybe surfing. Others have commented the lack of a need for water relaunch, and I would say having used open cells and single skins on water, not being able to relaunch them is very annoying. I hold hope Flysurfer will make the Peak at least partly water relaunchable. Reinhart Paelinck , Peak Designer, is a pretty progressive thinker. Expanding the scope of any product makes sense.

BOEMIX
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Posts: 186
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Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: Sant Pere Pescador (Spain)
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Style: Freeriding
Gear: Kites: ozone: chrono v2 15m, Hyperlink 9m, Catalyst 7m, enduro 10m, edge 13m, access 6m
Flysurfer Soul 15m.
Boards: Naish Bullet 5,4, Shinn Ronson 138x42, King Gee 150x50, Ketos Foil freeride2 and Transformer TT
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Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby BOEMIX » Sun May 06, 2018 3:07 pm

I only have snowkited with Flysurfer Peak 4m one day that I swaped it from a mate for my 6m Ozone Access, which is my go to kite in the snow.

I agree that compared to my access the power delibery of the peak was more abrupt, but the power generated was greater than my access, which is 2m bigger!

And after that I wondered why not use it on water.

I think a 15m FS Peak optimised for water use, like let 3 cells closed like the Ninox, would open the door to 4-6 knots foiling! I'm maybe too optimistic?

mikesids
Medium Poster
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:15 pm
Kiting since: 2006
Local Beach: Pt Chev, Auckland
Favorite Beaches: Aitutaki lagoon, Cook Islands
Style: Foil, surf, speed, jumping, freestyle
Gear: F One Furtives for speed, Airush Ultra's for freeride foiling , Chrono UL 11 / 15 for freerace foiling, Reo 5, Park 8/10/14, Bandit X ( 12m), Union 9m , JShapes Foil, Levitaz Aspect foil, Zeeko Spitfire XLW foil, Naish Skater, F One AC21 Speed boards, Groove Skate
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby mikesids » Mon May 07, 2018 3:25 am

@Sombra

I weigh 80kg if that helps. I feel the range of my Shaman is similar to my 15m Chrono ie both start around 5 knots and get uncomfortable around 12knots ( bearing in mind I am not a racer - they would hold down a 15m on short lines into the higher teens most probably). Regarding flight characteristics I find the Shaman easier to depower by sheeting out as the rear half of the kite deforms to spill lift . I think the Shaman is probably more stable at the bottom of its range , especially if the wind is gusty or turbulent – it seems that high aspect foils can suddenly stall and fall down in a heap ( have had this happen twice ) whereas the Shaman seems very stall resistant , kind of like a strutless kite which luffs and falls back in the window when overhead. I am sure that the Chrono is far more efficient upwind though. I am about to try shorter lines for both foil kites soon ( 17m ) to see how that goes , have been running stock 25m lines on an Ozone race bar up til now. I do think the Shaman works for foiling , it will be my go to option for the super light days at my local spot and I do accept that if it hits the water I will be swimming.

@Boemix - I think a 15m single skin would be miles too big , I wouldn't like to go larger than 12m personally. I think a 15m would scale up to have the power of a 20m+ foil or LEI and for foiling this is way too much for the average punter. The Ninox developers were working on 6 and 10m sizes only I believe as they were so powerful?

Disclaimer - I am just an intermediate foiler , not a guru and am still learning the vagaries of foil kites in particular . I still have a lot to learn about line length and positioning the kite in the window and managing the power when the wind gets up . I have tried strutless kites and a number of single strut options for foiling so don't mind tinkering and trying different options just to see what works. I think that the first company to come out with a lightweight single skin hybrid that flies stably, water relaunches reliably and lowers the realistic foiling threshold will do very well !

foilholio
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Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby foilholio » Mon May 07, 2018 6:01 am

4 to 6 knots is already well done. Try adding some camber to your existing foil, you can nearly double the lift. Single skins have a massive weight advantage, static flying them down to 1-2knots is possible and without the lightweight fabric versions either.

kitexpert
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Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby kitexpert » Mon May 07, 2018 11:50 am

foilholio wrote: 4 to 6 knots is already well done.
BS. 4 knots is only possible on ice or on very hard icy snow. Then kiting is slow struggle and kiter usually drags downwind or perhaps just keeps his ground. Looping kite always pulls downwind. No kite pulls hydrofoiler on a wing in 4 knots. 6-8 knots is possible, if kiter is light weight one and has good technique and right equipment.
foilholio wrote:Try adding some camber to your existing foil, you can nearly double the lift.
:D Only in foilolio's tweaking dreams. Perhaps it was possible to add even more camber and nearly double the lift again :lol:
foilholio wrote:Single skins have a massive weight advantage, static flying them down to 1-2knots is possible and without the lightweight fabric versions either.
No kite suitable for traction use flies in 1-2knots. It is 0.5-1m/s for f...s sake! Usual walking speed is about 1.5m/s, even average 70 year old grannys walk faster than 1m/s. Good luck launching a kite from that "speed" :lol:

I know these single skin kites because I own them, I've designed and fabricated them as well.

foilholio
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Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby foilholio » Mon May 07, 2018 1:30 pm

Now Now Kit Expert stay in the Monastery. Maybe you can tell us what the best "kit" this season is.

Regis-de-giens
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foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: The Monjet Ninox

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon May 07, 2018 4:27 pm

In my humble quest to the low end limits on hydrofoil, I found out that a minimum of performance is needed. Reason is that the apparent wind is high vs real wind and degrade kite pulling angle to keep planning. The Peak from my previous experience (but also discussion with other foiler) has a real lack of LD ratio for that. Shaman is a bit more performant so should be better. Hopefully Ninox being presented as similar performance to Speed3 should also be better.

Unfortunatelly cloths used for single for single skins are not the lightest ( I am curious to know the weight of a 12m Shaman). Moreover to reach marginal winds below usual foilkites, you definitely need more that 12m2 , hence this becomes a stopper to me.

So I started building my own single skin (by cutting the intrados of a very light Flysurfer s2 19m2) ; after long bridle setting period, result was encouraging but in the meantime I discovered the double skin Pulsion that has almost same weight as Peak (very light cloth) and which flies as early as Peak (confirmes by several testers), can support a lull of 0 knot during some seconds (peak cannot and collapse while this case is very very frequent on water or land), better work/loop and glide in lulls to save the kite from water, and which offers a better traction angle (more forward) to keep the planning in sub 5 knots lulls. Don't want to be provocatif, it is my deep opinion.

Now the ability to pack a single skin easily in the water is a good point ! If Ninox has an improved LD ratio + better rigidity in air in a 0 wind lull, then it can be a killer . Otherwise I do not feel you can really gain low end vs dedicated light wind medium ratio double skin.


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