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Recoating kite fabric

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foilholio
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby foilholio » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:27 am

Ready to pay up? :D
https://www.google.co.jp/search?site=&s ... C&tbm=shop
phpBB [video]




現在、非常にありがとうございました私にお金を示しています。

Ryobi PSV-600 looks cute get it :-)

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Kamikuza
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:37 am

They're all plug-in, not cordless.

No airless sprayers?
https://www.google.co.jp/search?sclient ... FxGdMnLE0o
Nothing under $100 :cry:

foilholio
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby foilholio » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:25 pm

So picky :lol: I thought you wanted corded? More powerful and lasts longer.

ok cordless blowers

http://www.komeri.com/topic/CKmSfFeatur ... 6006473245

you owe me double now.


Does japan put tariffs on Chinese stuff? Surely you must have a giant hardware you can go to?

Move to the mainland( that hunk of land westsouthwest) if you want cheap :lol: 你好

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Kamikuza
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:02 pm

Yeah, picky. You said $20 or something :lol: and there's no plugs on the beach

Maybe it's just our area, but I've never seen those products in the Komeri or other hardware stores here, and I've been looking. Giant hardware store? Not seen them either. Mega-electronics, sure.

foilholio
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby foilholio » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:02 pm

What you are going to do it on the beach? Sand will get stuck to it. And the poor beach. You would be better to do it on a road somewhere if you don't have anywhere else or grass. Those airless guns need power too, they pump the paint to spray it. So generator, blower, sprayer, this is becoming quite the task.

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby axel_lotta » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:03 pm

Hi everyone, axel here. I just came across this thread whilst browsing for info on bridle mods and saw (rather stoked actually) that you guys are referring to my side by side testing of different products for the recoating of kites.

I have been meaning to get around to posting a full review of the experiment for quite a while now, I was planning on posting on Foilzone.com but it appears it has now gone offline for good (along with the immense amount of knowledge contained within, which is a real loss in my opinion for the foil community).

So to start, what I will say is scrap the idea of spraying your coatings. In my experience, spraying does not adequately force the solution into the weave of the cloth and thus the adhesion is not as secure. Furthermore, although it is quicker, it is far more wasteful with overspray and then you have the health and environmental issues of atomised chemical which for the products the I recommend is a real concern.

My recommended technique is to apply the solution with a bog-standard sponge. Stay away from washing-up sponges as they are often dark coloured, are made of a problematic foam or have scrubbing pads glued to one side. In my case I went to the local foam rubber store and bought some off-cuts of medium density white-coloured foam and made a few sponges about 75mm x 75mm x 100mm. The application process can get a little slippery (as I highly suggest using elbow length gloves), so cut a couple of grooves along the sides of the sponge to give your fingers something to grip into to. One thing I will say about the actual application process is to rub the solution into the weave only until it ‘wets out’ (those who have worked with fibreglass matting will understand this immediately), further application will not give you any better sealing, just runs on the interior of the kite and extra weight.

I don’t have time right now to post a full rundown of the experiment but here are my suggested products in order of preference:

1. Eclectic Products Marine Goo (Canadian formulation) mixed 1:2 by weight with Xylene.
2. Koala Coat #25 hot air balloon sealant (this last one is not an option unless you live within the USA).
3. Acetic cure roof and gutter silicon (UV stabilised) mixed 1:3 by weight with Toluene.

Hope this helps, I’ll post all the results soon.

Cheers,

Axel

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby foilholio » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:30 am

I think you mean marine goop, that is the same as all the other goops/shoegoo etc, except it has some UV protection added, which you will also find in some of the other goops and e6000 versions.

As to spraying penetrating the fabric, it will do this very well, it is a function of how thin the liquid/mixture is. The thinner it is the more it soaks into the fabric, bringing with it the rubber compound. There will be no difference between the penetration of a spray and manual application, as long as the amount and thinness of the mixture hitting the fabric is the same. With spray you may have to increase the thinness to compensate for some evaporation while spraying. Anyway the ratios I used penetrated extremely well.

Yes spraying has some waste, if you use an airless gun this will be very minimal. Manually applying with foam, brush, roller etc, will have waste too, be very time consuming and have more weight increase for the same results because the application will not be as evenly applied. There is also increased exposure time to fumes and risk of skin exposure with a manual application. But either way good precaution and protective gear should limit any health risk. I just see spending an hour face deep in fumes vs 5 mins spraying perhaps with a gentle breeze to clear the air as obvious to me which I would prefer. Foam is still a good idea, perhaps if you used a pole as well it would be safer and easier.

As to foilzone going and losing knowledge I wouldn't worry. The people mostly still exist :-) Just ask here and you should find an answer.

Koala Coat #25? do you know what the active compound/rubber is in it? silicone/sbr/pu?

Looking at their website Kamikuza might have a laugh :lol: http://www.koalaproducts.net/cleaners.htm
Koala Products. Koala Plastic Polish, Koala Cleaner, Koala Kamikaze, and Koala Sealer ... Cleaner, Koala CheetahShine. Koala Coat #25
Image

What is the difference between a kamikuza and kamikaze again I forgot ? :-)

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Kamikuza
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:44 am

One means divine wind, the other is just a made up word...

NZ has $50 electric spray guns and Shoe Google, probably the other ingredients too. Might do the kite when we go home next year...

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby axel_lotta » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:56 am

Yes Foilholio, you are correct, it is Marine Goop not Goo, just a typo on my part.

It is very similar to a lot of the other Goops as produced by Eclectic, what drew me to it (apart from recommendations from the very helpful staff at Eclectic) was that it is specifically designed for sealing and bonding in a marine environment, but the UV version of E6000 would probably be just as good.

As for the spray vs direct application decision, I can only report what I have found myself. That is, to be successful at sealing the gaps between the weave the viscosity has to be such that it just thick enough to 'bridge the gap' whilst still being thin enough to be workable and wet the fabric out before it 'sets up'. In my experience, two coats of a thin solution do not have the same gap filling ability (and therefore measured decrease in porosity) as one coat of a thicker solution, but again I have chosen to go the foam applicator route and can only comment on that. I have not noticed any issue with variable coverage, but yes, theoretically spray application would have a more even coverage depending on your skill although in reality I'd say both options are equal. In my opinion there are many advantages to going a direct application rather than spray even with the time penalty involved. They are:

1. It is considerably cheaper (unless you have a spray system already),
2. There is no mess to clean up (I actually have a electric HVLP spray-gun but I did not want to potentially damage it, cured Goop sticks REALLY good and my gun has many internal parts that are a pain to clean even with ordinary paint),
3. I do not have an area which is suitable for spraying, my backyard has a vegetable garden and is generally quite windy not a great combination for atomised Xylene (I actually borrowed a mate's SCUBA tank and regulator which I wore and breathed from whilst applying).

All that being said, if spraying works for you because you don't have the same concerns or limitations as I, go for it. It will absolutely be faster, to do my 12m Speed 3 took at least an hour or so to do both upper and lower surfaces (I rigged a rope across the backyard and hung the kite from it's trailing edge with about 20 bulldog clips) As I wanted the coating to deform the wing as little as possible (and not stick the insides of the kite together) I inflated the kite by blowing air into the nose valve with my ShopVac. I would advise opening the deflation valves whilst doing this to not over pressurise the kite and not allow the coating the 'skin over' the fabric pores.

Whatever method you choose to use, please be aware of the health risks for yourself and anyone in the vicinity. All of the MSDS for Eclectic Products are on their website and the MSDS for solvents easily googlable. Toluene and Xylene are bad-ass solvents and can cause a range of issues. If you are female I would seriously consider not attempting using either Toluene or Xylene, if you are male do so only with elbow length solvent-resistant gloves and a decent mask and beware that both chemicals can cause mutations to sperm so you might want to hold off if you are planning on getting anyone pregnant in the next 3-6 months.

As for Koala Coat's formulation, although I cannot be 100%, it feels, smells, mixes and behaves almost identical to Acetic cure silicon. It does however have one significant advantage and that is its lack of a 'tacky feel' when cured which is a big downside to the silicon option as sand and dust will continue to stick to your kite for the remainder of its life. As I'm sure you will be aware by now, Koala Coat#25 is FAA approved for aviation use and it therefore a pretty safe bet for not screwing up your kite. Barry at Koala products is also an extremely helpful and affable fellow and I would not hesitate in doing business with him if you live in the USA.

Hope all this helps,

Axel

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:38 am

Axel,
Happy to hear from you again; remember I was the first tester of PU recoating a kite 2 years ago (after having tested Seal-and-Glide nano-recoating), and then very interested by your tests on samples comparing several recoating materials; PU had a poor aging feature according to your sample , which I believed should be true on the kite as well, so I warned on this outcome on french forums for people tempted by the easy and cheap PU recoating (but I cannot confirm by myself since I sold the kite last year, and did not get any confirming feedback from following re-coatings trials ).

I understand that now you have applied your own coating on an actual kite, could you please give some details on the results, like :
- over-weight ?
- internal pressure as new ?
- is the sand more or less adhering on the recoated cloth when humid ?
- has it a kind of "lotus effect" which is a very good deperlant ? PU was good for presure increase, but quite adherant to dust and sand which I didn't like much.


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