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Recoating kite fabric

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axel_lotta
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby axel_lotta » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:57 pm

Foilholio, thanks for your reply. Your breakdowns of solids contents and coverage rates made my brain hurt the first 3 or 4 times I read them but I think I'm onto it now...

I actually had no idea you went down the Shoo Goo path, I thought you were a die hard silicon man! How is the kite looking? I found that my Shoo Goo coated test pieces did ever so slightly yellow over a number of weeks in the sun, and the porosity ratings also progressively got a little worse over time.

The silicon used in my tests was acetic cure as I had read on the forums (maybe by yourself) that it was significantly stronger and better adhering than the neutral cure.

To be honest, I'm not sure how many tubes of Marine Goop I used on my actual kite, I think probably 1 and a bit (it was the 10.2oz cartridge though, not the 3.7oz tube). I had some solution left over as I mixed up more than I needed due to my actual coverage being more on the kite than the rate that I had projected from the test pieces. I did however go though quite a bit of my imported stash for all the initial testing, probably close to 2.5 cartridges. However, the numbers you have come up seem pretty close from memory. I'd say on an actual kite, the second coat would not add the same weight as the first, maybe somewhere in the vicinity of 75% would be closer due to the fact the fabric is already pretty well sealed. Again, we have to very careful with the weights listed against the samples, they are significantly heavier than in actual use (at least on my S3s deluxe fabric).

In regards to your question about the Xylene version, it is a Canadian formulation, probably not available in the USA. The PDS and MSDS is available from the Eclectic Products website. Canada has restrictions on Toluene so this is why they went this route and as I am led to believe, the actual cured product is identical. Like I said though, Xylene evaporates slower than Toluene so that works for me with a longer working time, see attached publication on the relative evaporation rates for solvents relative to Butyl Acetate.

Your second question was about seepage. What I am talking about here is the amount of light that the test piece let through when looking though it at a light source. You can tell a test piece will have a good porosity reading just by observing that the light is diffused evenly throughout. If there are any 'light pinpricks' showing through (seepage) it obviously indicated that that fabric weave has not been successfully filled. Kinda hard to explain in words, Koala Products do a much better job in their #25 application instructions than I have.

Finally, in my opinion you need at least 15 to 20 before and after tests on the various parts of a kite to get conclusive results on the effectiveness. Obviously the kind of porosity testing that I did will not tell you the amount of leakage you are getting through the seams or whether it has been improved by coating, this is something that only a internal pressure test like you describe may assist with, but a quick and dirty test is how long it stays inflated on the beach after landing (laid flat). On a similar note, there was also some discussion about the different colours of fabric's porosity degrading at different rates, I think my testing found some evidence of this but nothing conclusive as the sample size was too low.

Cheers,

Axel
Solvent evaporation rate chart.pdf
(444.41 KiB) Downloaded 25 times

foilholio
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby foilholio » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:03 pm

Yep sorry about that hurting your head, I skipped over some figures a bit because I was just recovering some of my first post. I guess you didn't read it cause yes I used shoegoo. I am not really a fan of Silicone compared to SBR(shoegoo), SBR is mechanically so much more superior. Not being able to recoat silicone is a complete deal breaker. I only did one kite in silicone and now one in shoegoo. There may be some UV difference between shoegoo and silicone, time will tell I guess. As to Yellowing , I haven't used the kite enough yet.

I looked at the Canadian SDS here http://eclecticproducts.com/products/am ... arine.html http://eclecticproducts.com/downloads/s ... canada.pdf and it says the solvent is tetrachloroethylene. Some how our dear northerners have go a bit confused if they think that's safer than toluene :lol:.

Yes I saw those pictures on the Koala Products website http://www.koalaproducts.net/koalacoatfaq.htm. It's a good way to visualize porosity.

I notice on http://www.koalaproducts.net/koalacoatfaq.htm
Does water affect KoalaCoat #25?

Yes. Moisture will accelerate the cure. On humid summer days, the coating cures much faster. After it cures, the coating repels water (hydrophobic). It will also not support life such as mold or mildew.
then this http://eclecticproducts.com/downloads/t ... nglish.pdf
This POLYETHER MOISTURE CURE PRODUCT
interesting http://www.gbproductnews.com/Articles/c ... es?cid=170
Polyether-based sealants and adhesives, the advanced formulation polymers that have overtaken urethane and silicone products in Japan and Europe, are becoming the new standard among U.S. architects and contractors for use throughout the entire building envelope from foundation to roof.

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PugetSoundKiter
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:11 am

I have a 15m speed2 silver arrow with skytex fabric (nylon) that is at the end of it’s life and a good candidate for testing coatings. The wingtips won’t fully inflate even with many speed-system/ring-line adjustments. Tested it on the ground with a fan to verify it won’t fully inflate due to the fabric being pores. Fabric could be stretched out, but when I fly and swing the kite to inflate the tips the shape seems fine. Shame because the kite is otherwise in good shape. The previous owner coated it once with nickwax, which may have helped waterproof but probably not the porosity. With nothing to lose a few years ago I washed it (made the worst bridle tangles ever) and coated it with 5 cans of silicon spray both sides. Easy to do, quick dry, fan tested and fly tested, no change. Then I coated it with water based polyurethane (Tent Sure). Harder to do, slower to dry, fan tested and fly tested, no change. Then I ran out of patience and put it in a box in the garage. So along comes this thread with styrene butadiene rubber (SBR) coating. Why not?

I found that SBR is a mixture of approximately 75 percent butadiene (CH2=CH-CH=CH2) and 25 percent styrene (CH2=CHC6H5). Like natural rubber, SBR is swollen and weakened by hydrocarbon oils and is degraded over time by atmospheric oxygen and ozone. Unlike natural rubber, it tends to harden with age instead of softening. The most important limitations of SBR are poor strength without reinforcement by fillers such as carbon black (for tires), low resilience, low tear strength (particularly at high temperatures), and poor tack (i.e., it is not tacky or sticky to the touch).

I found Amazing Goop is Solids 45% by weight (42% by volume). Styrene Butadiene Copolymer 30-60%, Toluene 30-60%, Solvent Naphtha (Methanol?) 10-30%, but the concentration is given as a range is to protect confidentiality or is due to batch variation. Styrene and can be produced from toluene and methanol. Butadiene usually is polymerized to produce synthetic rubber.

I found for thinning paints and varnishes, xylene can be substituted for toluene where slower drying is desired. Xylene is a generic term used to refer to three closely-related chemicals: meta-xylene, ortho-xylene, and para-xylene Xylene is a sweet-smelling liquid, colorless, quick to evaporate and very flammable. It is used in industrial processes for rubber and plastics manufacturing. Xylene will evaporates easily in the air and is broken down by sunlight into other less harmful chemicals. Best of all it’s cheap at the hardware store.

Last, I found that nylon is unchanged by Toluene, Xylene, and Naphtha Solvents.

So I’m planning to giving the old S2SA another chemical sponge bath to see what happens, and try not to inhale :turn:

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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:58 am

Hi,
Good work ! The problem with your multiple recoatings is how you know whether the previous coatings trials prevent the next one to adhere ! ... I do not know for.other coating but i have to admit hat PU and acetone was very adherent even if applied after a nano-technology recoating. Worked well on a s3 dlx for one year, with +300 grams , but then I don't know.

14ToeSide
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby 14ToeSide » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:59 am

SOLD!! Get rid of that sucker!!! It might weigh 100 lbs if u keep recoating it!!!

PullStrings
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby PullStrings » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:15 pm

Foolkookio could still relaunch it if it weighed 100 lbs with all the recoating...after all he relaunches ram airs 1/3 full of water...extra 100 lbs is nothing for such a self proclaimed ramxspert

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PugetSoundKiter
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:35 pm

14ToeSide wrote:SOLD!! Get rid of that sucker!!! It might weigh 100 lbs if u keep recoating it!!!
Nope, not going to try and sell this kite, unless you want it? Full disclosure above & buyer beware :naughty:
Regis-de-giens wrote:“The problem with your multiple recoatings is how you know weather previous coatings trials prevent the next one to adhere…
I won’t, but I might stumble across something that seals the fabric, and I’d have a kite that flys I could sell for even more to 14ToeSide :remybussi:

Also, I could claim to have discovered a very time consuming and expensive 23 step method for other insane people to follow:
  • 1. Read about foil kites and decide to buy a used one to try
    2. Ask the seller why it won’t fully inflate and get lots of advise on string theory
    3. Become proficient on speed-system, ring-line, and bridle adjustments
    4. Create test apparatus to do inflation testing
    5. Wash
    6. Dry
    7. Coat with liquid nickwax
    8. Dry/Cure
    9. Inflation test
    10. Test fly
    11. Coat with aerosol silicon
    12. Dry/Cure
    13. Inflation test
    14. Test fly
    15. Coat with tent sure liquid polyurethane
    16. Dry/Cure
    17. Inflation test
    18. Test fly
    19. Coat with goop styrene butadiene rubber and xylene thinner
    20. Dry/Cure
    21. Inflation test
    22. Test fly
    23. Advise others to buy only new foil kites :nono:

    or

    23. Patent, license, and sell my secret formula of...
    Kite Wax Silicon Polyurethane Styrene Butadiene Rubber Coating
:o :roll: :lol:

foilholio
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby foilholio » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:42 am

SBR sticks to SBR

Be careful with some of those other coatings as spray can silicone can prevent anything sticking. I think any silicone prevents anything sticking. Good reason to avoid it.
Last edited by foilholio on Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:51 am

except humid sand :rollgrin: :rollgrin:

foilholio
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Re: Recoating kite fabric

Postby foilholio » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:42 am

:roll:


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