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Concept'air 12m Pulsion kite

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pikovsg
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby pikovsg » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:05 am

kitexpert wrote:
Lmrutledge wrote:Here's a little vid from yesterday. 8 mph wind directly onshore. Sweet potato board

Tested Pulsion 15 with Designer Ben.

https://youtu.be/oAwBDu-Ngrk

Try to do a little summary soon.

LMR
8mph, 7kn? :) Perhaps wind was 8-9kn, some whitecaps here and there can be seen. 15m foil equals ca. 17m LEI, or even is a bit stronger. With big board not at all impossible combination, very well done anyway :thumb:
PullStrings wrote: Pikovsg (not an expert-started kiting last year) claims in around 6 mph he jumps 15.8 feet high with 6 seconds airtime on his foilboard + new 12
Apparently pikovsg is a talented foiler, but his lack of experience shows how he misjudges wind speed grossly. If he foiled whopping 3 times of the wind speed and used 100% of his kinetic energy he could have jumped 10.8ft high. Unfortunately Pulsions L/D is not near infinite and there is lot of drag elsewhere: board, lines, kiter himself. And perhaps pikovsg's jumping technique isn't perfect either, after a year kiteboarding... If 50% of the theoretical height, so about 5ft, was possible to achieve I would be quite surprised.
@kitexpert - True, been kiting for a bit over a year now, not an expert at this by any means. Love the sport and learning it fast, but def still new.

That said, some stuff I disagree on. Jump height - Woo is quite accurate, maybe off by a 1-2 feet, once in a while. 16ft is possible, and I suspect higher jumps are possible on the foil In marginal conditions. You can load the foil pretty hard, maybe more than a twintip... Wind speed - before kiting I was/still am a windsurfer for over 25 years and have also logged almost 200 sessions since starting kiting. That and the simple fact that iKitesurf was showing 4-6 miles for the hours I was on the water. Yes, there's wind gradient, gusts, location variation, season, tempos, etc. But, as any windsurfer will tell you - after years of sailing you just kind of know when the wind hits your face and you scan the beach, how much it's blowing.

I think the main point here with what Regis started about the Pulsion is not about specifics of wind speed to the mile. The deal with the kite is - it stays up in almost no wind w/o worry, with right technique gives you a massive boost of power in marginal conditions, it's superlight, and finally - it's not a complicated foil kite. I do quite a bit of super light backpacking and the materials Ben uses are similar to on some of the lightest tents in the world.

What I'm testing now is how Pulsion compares to BRM 13.5m and 8.5m Clouds with 5/10m line extensions for foiling. So far, I'm finding what Clouds have over Pulsion is turning speed, drift and instant depower. What Pulsion has over Clouds is grunt and total force generated. The other unusual thing (and the most interesting to me, personally) is that Pulsion's force on downstroke/loop lasts much longer than an LEI. Combined with a quick enough turning radius and solid balance in the air that may just be the combo that gets you on the foil in marginal conditions. That's what makes this kite unique.

foilholio
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby foilholio » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:37 am

Lmrutledge wrote:Any white caps were due to outgoing tide with onshore wind. Been kiting here for 11 years. I know the conditions. The wind speed was measured standing in the water At 8 MPH just before I took off. I don't use Knots. Ben said he felt there was even less wind ON the water than the shore.

Whatever the 15 Foil equals with a LEI, I can guarantee you with out any hesitation that the Pulsion won't be "free Fallin" until well after any LEI. We are talkin at least 2-3 mph.

This kite is one where you could put it up and tie it off like the kiddies do at the beach to watch and not worry about it.

For me it is the answer to NOT worrying if the kite will take a dive when I'm trying to Foil board in Ultra light wind. That's what I have been looking for. You won't have to loop the kite to save it from Swimming. It just sits there. We made it fly way past the Zenith over our heads and it just sat there. All the rest of the qualities are a Bonus.

If a kite like this gets you excited about getting off the freakin couch and trying to kite then DROP the Cash. If not then dismiss it from your future.

LMR
Good to hear of it's stability it should surf well then.

To me in the video the wind looks like bouncing around 7knots(8mph), which is where white caps start. You can see white caps coming and going, so like always wind is not constant. Interesting sometimes the beach can read higher or lower, it depends on it's shape and the wind direction. It's most likely Ben's comment is because the wind is just changing like it always does.

You seem very impressed with the kite will you be buying one then? I have to say it's on my wanted list but price competition from pansh is so strong :-)

pikovsg wrote:. But, as any windsurfer will tell you - after years of sailing you just kind of know when the wind hits your face and you scan the beach, how much it's blowing.

exactly. I think it is just easier for people to believe some of us cant tell what the wind is rather than accept their own assumptions about gear ,and what is possible, are wrong. Must be extra difficult if they believe themselves "experts" too. :roll:

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:01 am

New tip that I like : to launch in low winds on a narrow beaches. Can be useful in marginal winds when LE is not easy to elevate from the bar to catch the wind (it was easier with the pulsion yesterday than my previous speed3) : Be carefull to try this ON VERY LIGNT WIND AND FOR SKILLED RIDERS ONLY !!!
No sand on the Trailing edge, pre-inflate it 5 to 10 seconds by holding one speed system in each hand (bar still rolled and stuck-up between harness and belly), then leave it on the TE (LE up), then unroll lines form the bar ,by walking backward step by step (with line tensioned and kite keeping this full-window-backstalled-"ready-to-go" position); at the end of unrolling, keep still all lines tight in one hand, secure the Chicken loop and the safety line, then open your hand ...
You can save a lot of time and space since you can do the unrolling in the water.

@ foilholio : regarding the double Loop, I do not remember if I described it here or not; a bit out-of topic but since it worked fine with me in marginal wind with the Pulsion ... The principle is to benefit from the lift of a Uploop to get above the board and then a downloop to gain speed from 0 to foil speed once on the board; to my experiences and tests, here is a kind of efficiency ranking in marginal winds:
6- standard water start by crossing the wind-window
5- same but do some "8" at the zenith first to accelerate the kite.
4- downloop by pulling hard on rear hand, so kite makes 0,75 turn (*)
3- two serial downloops (*)
2- one uploop (pull on front hand) (*), so kite make 1,25 turn
1- one uploop then one downloop ; becareful in strapless, wind shall be very low and timing perfect (**) ; this could be 2 uploops, not tested as I do not like double rotations for my thin lines, while with UL then DL, therer is no need to untwist line afterward)

(*) I recommend to "prepare" the loop in the water by turning the bar 360 degree in anticipation, before launching the waterstart ; easier for beginners and more precise at the end of the trick to keep the planning for advanced riders.

(**) I give detailed methodology in my message of 31 may 2016 in the following french thread (sorry for the link, I can translate later this week if one asks for it) : http://www.tubelesskite.net/t8267-techn ... wind#99365
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

foilholio
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby foilholio » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:56 pm

YES! Foils are great to water launch. I have done it many many times. If you can stand it is quite easy! Until they fully inflate they are no hassle controlling on the water. I have even done it in deep water a few times. Swum with a kite to launch from rocks in the water etc too because of no beach. Very versatile these kites.


WAaah this double loop seems complicated to type! Maybe if you can or have caught it on video?

I think I get the gist of it though. I do some things similar. Like fly across the window the opposite way to get some speed, distance and height, and then dive down back across the window to get maximum speed and pull. I tend not to loop though. I always like to sine the kite forward trying to build forward speed. If I need maximum pull I will almost move it vertical up and down in the window. I will fly it back in the window though if I make a mistake and move it too forward on a stroke.

Regis-de-giens
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Style: 62 kg , light wind
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:11 pm

Here was my first Uploop-Downloop at 4 : 00 some month ago; awful and timing is not correct for this first test, which decreases the efficiency cause I am a bit unbalanced and it killed kite speed ; but at least ou can see one.
Regis-de-giens wrote:So, finally , here is the video of my foil session in Cannes 10 days ago (second session with the Pulsion). Difficult to select only 6 minutes out of so much of a dream session.
I tried to put some nice Music to counter balance the length of the video, where you will find in order:
0:10- a "normal ride"
O:30- a water relaunch
1:30- my preferred "upwind" loop to water start in light wind compared to common downloops
3:52- my first ride ever through a "oil-water surface" not perturbed by wind (3-4 knots ?)
4:00- one (awful) up-then-downloop as the best technique to me for waterstart in marginal wind (should open a topic on that)
4:10 - slack lines and swimming-loop-kite to go back to shore with approx 3-4 knots
5:35 - the expected end ...

phpBB [video]


If some of you want A longer video, here is the same in HD and total of 8 minute with some more rushes especially for the last swimming-loop phase/ https://youtu.be/dJoPLBQL3UA
I believe you can save efficiency compared to your the right-left movement or up-down movement you describe, because your movement requires to reverse kite direction exactly when kite is in a window position with less power, so it kills its speed. With loops in general, you will need less tension on one rear lines, allowing the kite to breath and accelerate with less Angle of Attack, so better LD ratio , hence speed.

In details, here is what I do with the pulsion (maybe to be tuned with other foilkites) :
1- kite at 12 o'clock, heels touching your ass to be as close as possible to the board, board at 90 degree of the wind.
2- pull hard with front hand, bar at 90 degree, kite will initiate its rotation. Keep heels against your ass in the water.
3- after 1/4 turn rotation (90 degre, so kite LE toward your future direction), you need to target a large turn radius that will be as low as possible in the wind window, almost touching the water, so release a bit the push of the same front hand to let the kite accelerate in an enlarge radius circle.
4- during the fall of the kite, in order to provide the maximum tension in the lines, force to keep your self and your contracted ass in the water, still heels against your ass, and press hard on heels to keep board 90 degree to the sea even if it want to make you waterstart above the sea but you need to resist first ( to tension the "catapult" ...)
5- when kite has completed its full loop (LE toward the zenith, 360 degree circle should finish as low as possible in front of you), fully release the front hand push, to obtain a straight direction of the kite toward zenith in front of you; still force to keep your ass deep in the water and board in full opposition, and resist getting up. The more you can resist, the more kite speed you will get for next phases.
6- kite will accelerate toward zenith with an increasing and unresistible force, you will get-up automatically during kite upward ; so, when it start ejecting you from water, gently push on your legs to release your ass from your heel , in a controled way: if too much power you can tension your legs more, if not enough power keep the heel close to your ass, but avoid using the bar to balance you.
7- once up on the board (kite should be almost back at the zenith), initiate the downloop by pulling very hard on you back hand (this time) to launch the loop in the other direction. This will reduce kite speed during its change of direction, so to compensate this, sheet in a bit the bar to both gain some sustentation to stay up on the board and shorten the rotation duration.
8-now you have started the 0.75 turn downloop. Manage your rear hand pull stroke to enlarge the circle if you need a lot of power, almost touching the water if wind gradient is not too strong. Otherwise keep the kite a bit higher, say 45 degres.
9- when the kite is parallel to the sea surface, pull also on the other hand (front hand) to obtain a straight direction of the kite with power, crossing the full wind window.
Ps : since you are already up, the full kite pull will be transfered into rider acceleration , with no energy loss to get on the board and no tension loss when you get up, wich is significative in marginal winds.
10- you can fully tension your leg during the kite crossing the window, if not already done (very light wind configuration).

11-Untwist the lines ... oh no ! I am kiding, no need... So just shout with one finger up, and thank god , allah or your mother for this wonderful light wind session :D

Strapless is feasible, you "just" need to hold the board with rear hand up to step 3 or 4.

PullStrings
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby PullStrings » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:23 pm

pikovsg wrote: @kitexpert - True, been kiting for a bit over a year now, not an expert at this by any means.

Wind speed - before kiting I was/still am a windsurfer for over 25 years and have also logged almost 200 sessions since starting kiting.

But, as any windsurfer will tell you - after years of sailing you just kind of know when the wind hits your face and you scan the beach, how much it's blowing.

Would have been a windsurfer for over 39 years if i started kiting last year ......as far as logging sesh's...gotta be getting close to 4000.
Windsurfers can tell the wind speed up to 15 feet (mast) and when they switch to kiting get real good after many many years at knowing how much light wind is blowing in their kites on the water.
That's the number we are after...not what your face feels...or scanning....or wind meter...or trees moving..or whitecaps....or weather station..or Ikitesurf wind graph.

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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby kitexpert » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:33 pm

pikovsg wrote:True, been kiting for a bit over a year now, not an expert at this by any means. Love the sport and learning it fast, but def still new.
pikovsg wrote: before kiting I was/still am a windsurfer for over 25 years and have also logged almost 200 sessions since starting kiting.
Ok, this explains a lot your current skills with hf. For most people that kind of development speed is not possible, you have also massive amount of kite sessions for that short time.

But anyway, you can not jump higher than your kinetic energy/kite air speed allow. To get kite flying fast you need high wind speed or high loading for the kite lines to get kite fly fast. In low winds it is difficult (impossible) to get kite flying fast enough (or pulling strong) and difficult to get your own speed up. The pull of the kite is just not able to overcome the Ds of the higher speed, so quite soon maximum and too slow speed is achieved.

For my knowledge Woo is accurate enough. I don't doubt your jump height/hangtime (good results :thumb: ), but the wind speed, which I'm sure was much higher.

I have done some snowkite speeding, my best results are about 50mph, ca. 43kn, not very special. Surface was icy with very low friction. Wind speed was a bit over 20kn, so my max speed was about twice the wind speed. Last years fastest snowkite speeds have had even less speed/wind speed ratio, at 40-50kn 73mph (63kn).

If I remember correct I have reached 3 times of the wind speed on ice, but I haven't chased that "record" intentionally. At certain speed there is a limit for different kites: it just don't go any faster, no matter what you try. I believe kiters own air resistance becomes too big.
Lmrutledge wrote:The wind speed was measured standing in the water At 8 MPH just before I took off. I don't use Knots. Ben said he felt there was even less wind ON the water than the shore.
Ok. It is no use to start argue. Even 2kn more wind changes the situation a lot, and that kind of difference is easily explained by the wind gradient.

My biggest gradient has been approximately 6kn at the surface, 12-14kn at kite height. It was magical to jump, holding and loading the kite was very easy, then at 12 and above kite pulled strongly. I was then on 11m kite, and could't have jumped 15feet if the wind up there was lower, in fact it might have been even more... It was a super day and my birthday too, I will never forget it 8)

I agree Pulsion stays in the air very well, probably better than (almost) any current kite.
Lmrutledge wrote:We made it fly way past the Zenith over our heads and it just sat there.
Kite can not fly directly upwind, over the zenith. If L/D was infinite, kite would fly directly overhead. With inertia kite can overfly, but then all lines become slack and foil kite usually collapses.

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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Big Wally » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:41 pm

I bet some on here can tell the Speed when they pass gas.

PullStrings
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby PullStrings » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:37 am

kitexpert wrote:
pulling strong.
pull of the kite

My biggest gradient has been approximately 6kn at the surface, 12-14kn at kite height. It was magical to jump, holding and loading the kite was very easy,
then at 12 and above kite pulled strongly.
I was then on 11m kite, and could't have jumped 15feet if the wind up there was lower, in fact it might have been even more... It was a super day and my birthday too, I will never forget it 8)
Great story....you want that pull on those strings :thumb: .....and 6 knots ain't gonna cut it.....but the 12-14 kn sure worked for you...thanks for not claiming you rode and jumped in 6kn :wink:

My most memorable gradient was about 4kn at the surface and 16 knots at kite height....due to super cooled down water surface (from upwelling) and hot sideshore wind...water was like glass
I had a TT flydoor XL and SP3 21 on 24 m lines ( 3m extensions) ...so from bar to kite was approx 30 m....same thing ...the jumps were crazy / floaty high at 20 feet...like you say magical

:happybirthday:

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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby foilholio » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:55 am

You can get gradients much bigger than that, even wind traveling in opposite directions :roll: but hey lets ignore wind station readings at kite height and kites flying near water level, cause yall kooks and can't accept it.
twitspert wrote:Kite can not fly directly upwind, over the zenith. If L/D was infinite, kite would fly directly overhead. With inertia kite can overfly, but then all lines become slack and foil kite usually collapses.
Where zenith is directly over head then yes a kite can fly past it. You see wind does not always travel perpendicular to gravity. A kite can also generate lift with zero drag, so yes infinite :-) Or did you miss that hot air vid? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Regis-de-giens wrote:Here was my first Uploop-Downloop at 4 : 00 some month ago; awful and timing is not correct for this first test, which decreases the efficiency cause I am a bit unbalanced and it killed kite speed ; but at least ou can see one.
Regis-de-giens wrote:So, finally , here is the video of my foil session in Cannes 10 days ago (second session with the Pulsion). Difficult to select only 6 minutes out of so much of a dream session.
I tried to put some nice Music to counter balance the length of the video, where you will find in order:
0:10- a "normal ride"
O:30- a water relaunch
1:30- my preferred "upwind" loop to water start in light wind compared to common downloops
3:52- my first ride ever through a "oil-water surface" not perturbed by wind (3-4 knots ?)
4:00- one (awful) up-then-downloop as the best technique to me for waterstart in marginal wind (should open a topic on that)
4:10 - slack lines and swimming-loop-kite to go back to shore with approx 3-4 knots
5:35 - the expected end ...

phpBB [video]


If some of you want A longer video, here is the same in HD and total of 8 minute with some more rushes especially for the last swimming-loop phase/ https://youtu.be/dJoPLBQL3UA
I believe you can save efficiency compared to your the right-left movement or up-down movement you describe, because your movement requires to reverse kite direction exactly when kite is in a window position with less power, so it kills its speed. With loops in general, you will need less tension on one rear lines, allowing the kite to breath and accelerate with less Angle of Attack, so better LD ratio , hence speed.

In details, here is what I do with the pulsion (maybe to be tuned with other foilkites) :
1- kite at 12 o'clock, heels touching your ass to be as close as possible to the board, board at 90 degree of the wind.
2- pull hard with front hand, bar at 90 degree, kite will initiate its rotation. Keep heels against your ass in the water.
3- after 1/4 turn rotation (90 degre, so kite LE toward your future direction), you need to target a large turn radius that will be as low as possible in the wind window, almost touching the water, so release a bit the push of the same front hand to let the kite accelerate in an enlarge radius circle.
4- during the fall of the kite, in order to provide the maximum tension in the lines, force to keep your self and your contracted ass in the water, still heels against your ass, and press hard on heels to keep board 90 degree to the sea even if it want to make you waterstart above the sea but you need to resist first ( to tension the "catapult" ...)
5- when kite has completed its full loop (LE toward the zenith, 360 degree circle should finish as low as possible in front of you), fully release the front hand push, to obtain a straight direction of the kite toward zenith in front of you; still force to keep your ass deep in the water and board in full opposition, and resist getting up. The more you can resist, the more kite speed you will get for next phases.
6- kite will accelerate toward zenith with an increasing and unresistible force, you will get-up automatically during kite upward ; so, when it start ejecting you from water, gently push on your legs to release your ass from your heel , in a controled way: if too much power you can tension your legs more, if not enough power keep the heel close to your ass, but avoid using the bar to balance you.
7- once up on the board (kite should be almost back at the zenith), initiate the downloop by pulling very hard on you back hand (this time) to launch the loop in the other direction. This will reduce kite speed during its change of direction, so to compensate this, sheet in a bit the bar to both gain some sustentation to stay up on the board and shorten the rotation duration.
8-now you have started the 0.75 turn downloop. Manage your rear hand pull stroke to enlarge the circle if you need a lot of power, almost touching the water if wind gradient is not too strong. Otherwise keep the kite a bit higher, say 45 degres.
9- when the kite is parallel to the sea surface, pull also on the other hand (front hand) to obtain a straight direction of the kite with power, crossing the full wind window.
Ps : since you are already up, the full kite pull will be transfered into rider acceleration , with no energy loss to get on the board and no tension loss when you get up, wich is significative in marginal winds.
10- you can fully tension your leg during the kite crossing the window, if not already done (very light wind configuration).

11-Untwist the lines ... oh no ! I am kiding, no need... So just shout with one finger up, and thank god , allah or your mother for this wonderful light wind session :D

Strapless is feasible, you "just" need to hold the board with rear hand up to step 3 or 4.

Interesting, but I think my technique produces more power. Of particular note at 4:10 in the vid when the kite moves in the opposite direction, this causes the board speed to slow down, I always keep the kite moving forward to avoid this.

I also note with your starting stroke if you make it longer and from a higher position you'll get more pull. It's tricky cause if you go too far you'll stall the kite at the windows edge. I always keep it moving. I think in general you need to make more use of the window, the long straight flights of the kite are where most power is made, any turns reduce power and more so if they are tighter. So less turns and lighter larger turns with maximum straight sections. Try it :-).


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