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Concept'air 12m Pulsion kite

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Regis-de-giens
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Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:43 am

5-6 seconds is an approximation , but I confirm this range when re-thinking of the story yesterday; From all the foil kite or LEI I got , none had such an ability (but to be confirmed , I only used it twice really), even the One was not so good as it stays properly during say 3-4 seconds max (I would say 1 or 2 second max for the 3 struts rally), then accelerate downward rapidly in a flag mode.

I asked Benoit for some biscuits information on a bigger size ; it maybe its intention later on, but not in short term, having too much projects currently ; I think 15m could be useful for classic TT or surf or very heavy guy on a HF ; but the 12m already makes a wonderful work for standard weight on a Hydrofoil. I think he personally uses the 9m more than the 12m for example (on a foil).

I Just remind you one feeling I had during my first flight of the Pulsion on the beach 3 weeks ago: wind was poor ( say 4 knots) and I was quite sure not to fly the kite having the Lotus reference in mind (which is already one of the best light wind zenith). When up, and when working the kite, I was able to slide about 4-5 meters on the beach and do little jumps, i.e. 50cm without pushing on legs ; it is possible that there was more wind at 20 m elevation , but not so obvious I would say from site configuration and flags behaviour at the top of mats. This convinced me to try to ride, successfully but wind maybe a bit stronger far form coast, hard to judge.

Another comment : the stiffners on the LE help damed a lot for the first launch and any water relaunch: no special techniks here needed to start it even in 3 knot, no preinflation at all, just let the bar go and pull on front line directly during 5 seconds if necessary; while with all FS speeds I got and Aurora, (even lotus and even Silver arrow with the same weight as Pulsion cloth), I needed a friend to hold the LE catching the wind in full window, sometimes during dozens and dozens of seconds in marginal winds.

foilholio
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Local Beach: Ventura Beach
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Gear: Foils
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby foilholio » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:16 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:then accelerate downward rapidly in a flag mode.

Sadly this is what most inflatables do, even the ones that don't do it much still do it sometimes. Foils don't really do it at all, well peterlynn arcs can, they drop out of the air sideways like a snake . Most foils tend to float back and get twisted up, which is not so bad if it means the difference between a destroyed kite or not in the waves but not great if you want to fly it again. The challenge with foils is one that holds it shape more or less when it drifts, then it will open up reliably. Some do it much better than others , pyscho4, ARCs, A15, the unity seems like it could, pulses were a bit average, the bigger fatter ones are better in all sizes with the bigger speed3/4 able but the smaller ones not.

Yes 15m is a nice size but I would say with this light fabric bigger than 21m will now start to work for heavier riders on a surfboard.

The wind is very hard to judge. In the video it looked like you got a couple extra knots on the water. It would make sense the land with trees and buildings would push it up a little. On shore wind is like that.

"damed'? inflate? Benoit is obviously very good at designing the kite for initial inflation.

So pulsion has the same weight cloth as the silver arrow but is much lighter?

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:51 am

When I say "damned" it means far better.

Both Silver Arrow ( speed2 only) and Pulsion cloth have the same density of 27gr/m2 (then from the kites I know, will come in weight order : the lotus, then the pansh normal cloth then the FS dlx, then the FS standard). But in the feeling and in reality, the Pulsion flies with less wind than Silver arrow (and seems more solid); my explanations are:

- I weighted the speed 2 SA at 2.5 kg in 15m, hence approx 2kg if considering 12m2 ; so 300 gr more than Pulsion on the same balance tool. Bigger zip and 4 exhaust over-pressure valves on the speed may explain its higher weight. But on the other hand speed2 has a higher projected area (so, hard to compare exactly on the paper since projected area of the Pulsion is unanswered by Benoit, as for many kites manufacturers unfortunately).

- Pulsion launches far better, I think it is due to stiffners that keep Leading Edge toward wind and openings really open :lol: ; it makes an enormous difference, especially on the water relaunch (a video is coming soon); i also think that more compact Aspect ratio helps catching more wind since higher on the water surface.

- more stable with slack lines and no "wings"

- easier to work and down-loop to keep the kite in the air if a lull occurs at the edge of the wind window (useful on the water of course but also in the mountains since wind is often zero at the ground to relaunch); important to me since I will also use it for snow-kiting.

Indeed a huge surface could be very interesting, but Benoit only talked about a possible 15m ...

You are right, on the video, the wind went far "stronger " as soon as I had waterstarted (say +10 knot at the end of the video and I was almost over powered 1 minute after ...) and the water surface changed a lot in only 1 minute. This video above was my third test . So not the same session when I recall the feeling of the first test on beach after the first launch (I had no Gopro unfortunately , because not hoping to ride) , and wind stayed between 5 and 6 knots approx during this 1 hour session without video proof but only this picture from a friend on the beach :-?

foilholio
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Local Beach: Ventura Beach
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby foilholio » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:47 pm

Yes the speed2 would have a lot of extra things on it, I am sure the mixer and bridles are heavier too. Maybe it has more cells too. The Pulsion looks quite a thin airfoil? , so less material on the ribs. I think that is Benoit's style.

Wait till you add a WAC line to it, you will improve low end and relaunch.

Well 15m is a start, all this development is great, foils have long been under appreciated. Hopefully one day flysurfer releases something other than high AR foils. Maybe Ozone will join too, they only need to close the cells on something like the Summit.

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:18 pm

Interesting what you say , since I felt that Pulsion design and behaviour was close to the summit (just tried 5 minutes the summit on snow).

Here is a photo of yesterday, in 5 knots I would say, maybe 4, just at the limit of the Easy planning
Image

foilholio
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Local Beach: Ventura Beach
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby foilholio » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:28 pm

magnifique. moments kiting like that are just glorious.

The summit and pulsion do look similar. The summit looks like it has a fatter airfoil, so would be slower.

kitexpert
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby kitexpert » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:08 pm

"30 cells on my 12m" -regis
"Yes it has stifners on the whole leading edge like sonic" -regis
"it is my favorite foilkite now" -regis

Sounds good. Cell width is quite narrow, 30 cells for 12m kite with that AR is good enough. LE stiffeners are well worth their weight, they help launching too, like you wrote.

"I weighted the speed 2 SA at 2.5 kg in 15m, hence approx 2kg if considering 12m2 ; so 300 gr more than Pulsion on the same balance tool. Bigger zip and 4 exhaust over-pressure valves on the speed may explain its higher weight." -regis

Speed2 has 9 more cells than Pulsion. It means more fabric, more internal reinforcements, more seams etc. This is the main reason for bigger weight, if fabric is same weight. But lower aspect wing has more volume (more air inside) and smaller L/D ratio.

If B. Tremblay is the original developer of variable PA, credit for him. Concept'air has been and is almost unknown brand here in Europe.

"Wait till you add a WAC line to it, you will improve low end and relaunch." -foilholio

Would you explain how low end is improved and why that wonderful line is so little used?

"The summit looks like it has a fatter airfoil, so would be slower." -foilholio

It is not possible to judge correctly airfoil thickness from the pictures. Thickness is given in % of the chord. Used values do not differ a lot - in fact less than inflatable LE-strut diameters. In both cases it is silly to think thinner is better. Even if summit had thicker airfoil it does not mean it is slower kite. And slower by what perspective, flying speed, turning speed?

"Well 15m is a start, all this development is great, foils have long been under appreciated." -foilholio

Foils rule in high performance/low wind segment. In lower AR they don't have the edge, but vice versa known weaknesses (which are overlooked in racekites) start to weight. I don't think FS will release Psycho5, there is too little market for it. Foil users are happy with Speed or even with Sonic, for freestylers or inflatable users FS has LEI's.

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:23 pm

Thanks for your comments and inputs.
kitexpert wrote: Speed2 has 9 more cells than Pulsion. It means more fabric, more internal reinforcements, more seams etc. This is the main reason for bigger weight, if fabric is same weight. But lower aspect wing has more volume (more air inside) and smaller L/D ratio.
True, however the AR is lower, hence each internal reinforcement is longer, balancing your statement; actually I think that the wider reinforcements are located, the lighter it is. Higher Profile thickness plays also a role on fabric quantity due to internal reinforcement height, however a thinner profile would require a bit more reinforcements density, so not obvious as well...

BTW I think that the Pulsion has a thinner profile than speed, to be confirmed, but which would explain why i do not feel it is "too powerfull" like a speed could be in higher winds.
kitexpert wrote: If B. Tremblay is the original developer of variable PA, credit for him. Concept'air has been and is almost unknown brand here in Europe.
Yes it is , you can find histories in the forums;
Concept'air was know a bit more decades ago in Europe, at the start of foilkites : I just learned he designed the first closed cell foikite ever, tested by A certain Laurent Ness, and before the F-one designed its forst kites like starters, etc ..

kitexpert
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Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby kitexpert » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:54 pm

"True, however the AR is lower, hence each internal reinforcement is longer, balancing your statement; actually I think that the wider reinforcements are located, the lighter it is." -regis

Lower cell count allow simpler bridle. There is not so big need to use D-ribs or H-ribs to get primary bridle count lesser. So same sized low AR kite has less parts than high AR kite. For example R1 is almost mandatory to bridle on every 3 ribs and use full cell D-ribs to support unbridled ribs. Otherwise bridle would become having too much drag, and being too dense and messy. Drawback is added weight and increased manufacturing labour because of more parts of the kite.

It would be nice to see picture of Pulsion which shows bridle locations, spacing and cascades.

"BTW I think that the Pulsion has a thinner profile than speed, to be confirmed, but which would explain why i do not feel it is "too powerfull" like a speed could be in higher winds." -regis

Or its airfoil has lower camber. That would (partially) explain its good drifting ability like you mentioned. It is remarkable if Pulsion has higher top end than Speed. That kite sounds even better.

My kite history reaches in 1990's, but then I flew and made conventional kites, eddys, deltas and sleds. I didn't have access to internet then, so earliest power kite history is not so familiar to me. (If there was very much online info at all :?: ). I've have read something afterwards of course. I started with books and for sure didn't use computers for kitedesign... Powerkites and then kitesurfing came along for me in early 2000's, hard to remember exactly :)

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Concept'air new Pulsion kite

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:16 pm

Ok I understand your clarification on ribs ect for high AR, it sounds good, thanks.

For camber i can honestly not say.
I do not know if higher end is better than s4, and moreover my speeds were a 15m (far worse in high end of course) and a s4 10m, but i did not experienced the same conditions. What I wanted to say is that one criticism of the s4 in foil is that it does not go that far in the wind window, hence a angle of traction that can becomes unconfortable in high winds (this is specific to Hydrofoil). I was affraid of worse with the lower AR of the Pulsion but my first feeling in about 12 knots (which is more than twice its low end) is that I was not less compfortable than with the lotus. It is a feeling for now and not a certainty since I cannot ensure that wind was the same speed.


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