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foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

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Jamie-NYC
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foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby Jamie-NYC » Sat May 28, 2016 4:28 am

New to foil kites, have no one to guide me. After failed first launch with new Pansh A15in January, TCI, I sorted lines on my local LI beach today, and ran into a major conceptual obstacle. After untangling lines, laid out bar to reconnect, but color coding of lines seems backwards to me. ABCZ goes to ends of bar, and ZCBA goes to middle lines. This seems completely the opposite of LEIs, where middle lines go to the leading edge, outside lines provide control over angle of attack. I thought something must be wrong, checked my unused 12m version of same kite, and sure enough, outside lines go to ABCZ. Again, this seems the complete opposite of LEIs (and vertical wings, sails) - when you pull in on the bar, you are reducing, not increasing, angle of attack. Why design the system differently for foils? And can I simply connect the bar LEI style so I am not confused switching between the two? What am I missing? Now don't want to put the kite in the air until I understand why anyone would want to design the flying systems this way.

Note - I looked up schematics for foil kites, and found diagrams that showed some kites with "brake" lines attached to A, and some with brake lines attached primarily to Z. WTF.

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Re: foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby foilholio » Sat May 28, 2016 6:37 am

First you broke the number one rule never disconnect your lines. Although you can disconnect them, as you have discovered things can quickly get much worse.

Ignore the concept of middle and out. All the bridles go to approximately the middle of each side. This is because there is very little structure in foil kites, the bridles need to distribute the force evenly so they sit in the middle. The final bridles, the front or rear lines, divide the forces between each side.

A is the front, so front lines. B follows then C. Z or BR(brakes) is the rear or final bridle, so rear lines.

It does sound like you have hooked them in reverse, foil kites change AOA with the bar exactly the same as inflatables. The system is not different you either have them hooked up wrong or maybe you don't understand how they function. Again there is not outside/inside lines only front and back/rear.

What line plans (schematics) did you look at? Try download the speed4 lotus line plan http://flysurfer.com/files/dlm_uploads/ ... _LP-18.pdf off flysurfers website. The pansh A15 onehttp://panshkite.com/syssite/home/shop/ ... erkite.jpg is fine too but the naming for parts is a bit confusing. There are many different bridle designs for foils of many years ago, most now are very similar. The speed4lotus and A15 have the same layout.

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Re: foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby windrider1 » Sat May 28, 2016 11:44 am

Hey jamienyc whts up. I think i reached out to u before.. Im a landboarder and relatively new kitesurfer in queens NY .i have been flying foils for many years if u want to meet up i can help u out with your foils. A depower foil should match up the same as far as connecting it to another depower bar whether its an lei bar or any other type. Leading edge lines of foil to center line of bar and outside lines /steering lines of foil to outside lines on the bar . Note however Pansh kites can be defective straight from the factory. Send me a message if u need more help. Bye the way where do fly on Longisland.

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Re: foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby foilholio » Sat May 28, 2016 12:48 pm

Windrider you are just confusing him foils don't have outside lines only front and rear.

You really have a bee in your bonnet about Pansh don't you. I highly doubt there is something wrong with his kite he is just confused with the lines which is to be expected if you have never used a foil. Most inflatable riders can't understand how the rear lines can't be on the tip and the kite can still steer. Which is what he is talking about.

Jamie-NYC
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Re: foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby Jamie-NYC » Sat May 28, 2016 3:18 pm

I disconnected lines because I made a mistake, tried to launch in a difficult spot first time (January), then had issues folding kite to put away, etc., had a disastrous mess. The upside of that mistake is that I am learning (with no one to teach me but this forum, thanks).

Ok, so color coding is correct. The other odd thing about the color coding is that the brake lines are heavier weight than the "front" lines, also opposite of LEI.

It's very hard to really see what's going on with all of th lines while the kite is lying flat on the ground - eager to get it up in the air and really study it - but real wind today, and cold water - so will be out on LEI.

Also note: foilholio, your suggestion about FLS not in my 4-line conversion seems a good idea - no knot, just lines looped together. Goes through the cleat on the chicken loop more smoothly, hope will not pull through the small ring under load. Will eventually change the chicken loop - and possibly convert to pulley bar (I actually kind of like pulley bars).
Last edited by Jamie-NYC on Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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edt
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Re: foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby edt » Sat May 28, 2016 3:34 pm

foils and inflated kites work on the same principle. You pull on the bar and the kite has a higher angle of attack. I am constantly moving my bars (have 4 different control bars with different line lines) around so I get tangles constantly. On my aurora if you grab the yellow line at the top of the tip of the kite and walk it out so it's straight and on top all the way to the pigtail then make sure the other connector is not tangled that will put the bridle in the correct position. It's pretty easy. Also if you are like me and constantly switching bars, it helps if you put kook proof pigtails on your kite, use whatever system you like that helps prevent confusion. I agree it's hard to figure out which end is the outside line and which is the inside lines just by looking at it there's bridles going everywhere. For all my inflato kites the rear lines are always to the outside and below the center lines. For foils, I'm not sure if there's any particular system, on top below, the bridle is what makes the kite hold its form. For my aurora, the rear line pigtail is below and closer to the center while the center pigtail is on top and closer to the tip of the kite.

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Re: foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby corbett » Sat May 28, 2016 6:02 pm

Brake lines are now always weaker strength than power lines.

What I sometimes do is lay my foil kite out at home and then climb to the top of my ladder whilst holding the pigtail or tie it to my chandalier. I can get a good view of one side of the bridles.

By the way Foilholio, I see that Ukrainian foil company uses the same bar as Pansh does. Sky country or something.

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Re: foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby foilholio » Sun May 29, 2016 2:42 am

The fronts should be stronger than the rears like you say. Jamie says the pigtails are opposite with the rears being strong than the fronts which is not how it is on my A15. I would think something might not me connected right. Or he was connecting the lines in reverse like he described.

Those Pansh bars are just Generic bars from China. If you look on Aliexpress or Alibaba, you will find them and few others that different brands are using. I think there must be a mail order catalogue for kite brands. The ultimate resellers.

edt wrote:I am constantly moving my bars (have 4 different control bars with different line lines) around so I get tangles constantly
If you use a foil kite regularly, it is best to have one bar just for that one kite to be left connected. You will save a huge amount of hassle. The speed and hassle free setup and pack down is actually one of the biggest enjoyments of foil kites.
edt wrote: Also if you are like me and constantly switching bars, it helps if you put kook proof pigtails on your kite, use whatever system you like that helps prevent confusion.
Good advice. As well the thin pigtails Pansh uses now ,like the Flysurfer ones too, are not designed to take the bar off and on. The only negative to thick pigtails with their bigger knots is they do tangle much more easy.
edt wrote: For my aurora, the rear line pigtail is below and closer to the center while the center pigtail is on top and closer to the tip of the kite.
On the ground they can give that impression but in the air they are just front and rear. If you are trying to sort out the mess on the ground I hold the front pigtail up in the air and check nothing cross's over it and the A bridle, it should run free to the LE of the kite. You then do the same looking at B then C then Z, usually while still holding the front pigtail. You can then place the front pigtail to the center and the rear to the outside, only to keep them in order for when you sort your lines out. You can actually do it in reverse but that may confuse y'all.
Jamie-NYC wrote:I disconnected lines because I made a mistake, tried to launch in a difficult spot first time (January), then had issues folding kite to put away, etc., had a disastrous mess. The upside of that mistake is that I am learning (with no one to teach me but this forum, thanks).
It happens. It may surprise you but any tangle can still be resolved with the bar connected and easier once you know how, well that is if you have a low V on your front lines. You can pass the bar through the lines and lines around the bar. By leaving the bar connected you will avoid some truly horrible mess with bridles passing through bridles. Having said that they can still tangle and it is a bit of an art to get things undone quickly. Think "lightly tossing salad or pasta" you sort of tease at tangle messes and gentle pull. Once you pull tight hard knots form and you need to go in like a surgeon dissecting the mess. Then I often follow the lines into the mess and pull/untangle them out. Leaving the lines connected gives you a way to follow out of the knotted mess. If you disconnect them you will make more tangles as you undo it all. Other tricks include following your hand along the kite to pull bridles that are wrap around the kite, and wrap the bar up to pass the bar through crossed bridles at the kite, that is usually a setting up problem when the bar is still wrapped(if you leave it connected). Having said all that I hardly use any of it any more as good flying and hard set setup and pack up techniques avoid them all. Occasionally I still do though and I have to search my memory a bit to remember. But when I was a beginner with foils I did it a lot, even disconnecting my lines :-( If you have to you have to.
Jamie-NYC wrote:The other odd thing about the color coding is that the brake lines are heavier weight than the "front" lines, also opposite of LEI.
Hmm on my A15 the Front pigtail is a thicker grey line and the Rear is slightly thinner red. They are both full length splices on the pigtails, so are twice as thick as the line used. They are also made from the same front and rear lines I bought for my A15 from Pansh. It sounds like with what you said in your opening post you were connecting the lines in reverse? May be the pigtails are on the wrong ends? The thicker(grey) one should definitely be on the front connected to A with 2 pulley lines(at one ends) connected to it.
Jamie-NYC wrote:It's very hard to really see what's going on with all of th lines while the kite is lying flat on the ground - eager to get it up in the air and really study it
Lay the kite out flat down wind with sand on the trailing edge. Hold the front pigtail up so it has slight tension. You should be able to see how the bridles flow freely to the kite. If they don't you have a problem. REALLY REALLY best you don't launch with a problem, you will just get headaches.
Jamie-NYC wrote:Also note: foilholio, your suggestion about FLS not in my 4-line conversion seems a good idea - no not, just lines looped together. Goes through the cleat on the chicken loop more smoothly, hope will not pull through the small ring under load. Will eventually change the chicken loop - and possibly convert to pulley bar (I actually kind of like pulley bars).
NP. If it does slip the ring where you connect the leash should stop it at the chicken loop and just give you some steering issues till you land. To make the ring's hole tighter you can wrap some line through and around the ring and tie it off. Doing this many times you can make bigger rings work as well. But I only think you have a very low chance of it slipping through, the thick safety line connected to the front line is quite fat at the join and should not go through the ring. So I wouldn't worry.

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alexrider
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Re: foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby alexrider » Sun May 29, 2016 3:05 am

foilholio wrote:Windrider you are just confusing him foils don't have outside lines only front and rear...
I agree it's better to see it that way. But rear lines lead to the outside lines at the bar. Good to see both sides of the story. :wink: My 2 cents.

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Re: foil kite lines - opposite of LEI?

Postby foilholio » Sun May 29, 2016 3:57 am

Yes you are correct they do. I think in general foil kites are quite confusing to first use. Best watch lots of videos of people landing launching and flying.


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