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Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

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Mossy 757
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Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:08 pm

WH Lithuania wrote: Interesting - looks like Z connection line doesn't have any adjustment knots. It only has about 30cm tail. Where should I put knot? At the end of line?

There are few knots in the center of picture. What can I achieve by adjusting it?

If you want to loosen Z, I would try 1cm increments. Mark the line 1cm further down the tail from the existing knot with a marker, tie a knot right above that mark and then adjust so that the mark is barely showing below the knot. Leave the old knot in place so you can go back if you don't like it. The used Joker 5 I bought had like 7 knots in the Z pigtail when I got it, there's no harm in having lots of settings to play around with to get the kite the way you like it.

The adjustable pigtail in the center of the picture serves to lengthen or shorten your pulley line geometry. Shorter pulley lines = less cambered airfoil, therefore more stability but less "grunt." Longer pulley lines = more cambered airfoil, less stability (more tip collapse), and more grunt.

Since pulley lines normally shrink over time, these kites are designed to become more stable but less powerful as they age. The pigtail on Elf kites allows you to adjust for this over time. I'd measure these lines now so you know what the stock length is; if the kite starts performing poorly as it ages, you can either go to a longer knot on the pigtail or replace the line to get back to factory spec.

The Elf pigtails serve the same exact function as the sliding stopper knot setup Ozone uses. This video gives a good overview of how to check and adjust your speed system. Just pretend that instead of moving a knot up and down like on Ozone, you're just choosing a different pigtail knot. The advantage of Elf's system is that if you need more pigtail, you can just replace the stock pigtail with some dyneema and make it any length you want; with the Ozone setup, if you move your knot as far as it goes, you need to replace your speed system or add an aftermarket pigtail to get more length. The advantage of Ozone's system is that it involves less line and there's no extra pigtail dangling in the breeze as you ride, so there's fractionally less drag and one less thing that can get snagged or caught on something.

phpBB [video]


Bottom line:
If you go to the tightest settings on everything the kite will pull like hell, go deep downwind very fast, turn quickly, but be more likely to collapse and harder to hold down going upwind because the "torque" of the kite will be pulling you downwind more. One might associate these settings with a "light wind" configuration, although increased likelihood of tip collapse + light wind is a recipe for disaster with my kite skills. You'll get more out of the kite in the light stuff but your piloting (or swimming!) skills will need to be spot on.

If you loosen everything to the longest possible settings, the kite should have light bar pressure and good stability, but slower turning and less peak power. You might want this kind of behavior when riding at the upper limits of the kite's wind range or if you're a lighter rider who needs less peak power during a water start to get up and riding.

My Joker 5 is setup with really loose Z right now and everything else at "standard" factory settings and I love it. It creates way less grunt than my Sonic FR does but once I'm up and riding it creates good smooth linear power, which I find more conducive for kitefoil racing as "grunty" is a negative characteristic during tacks and gybes.

I'm going to test my Joker 7 as it came directly from Elf and see how it compares, but based on my 2 buddies who are also figuring out their 15m J7's, I suspect I'll have to do some loosening to get the bar feel and performance I'm looking for.

foilholio
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Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby foilholio » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:23 pm

With it tight beyond a certain point the L/D becomes worse so the kite sits deeper and that is why upwind is worse. It collapses because it creates a negative pitching moment(because of the air deflection at the rear), the kite wants to flip forward. This actually can cause at low AoAs the AoA to reduce further and the kite fly further forward reducing AoA even further. It's a bit weird. You see it with paragliders when they use brakes(Z) as the first tendency is the wing to fly forward and collapse because of it. They would be much safer to use other bridle rows to control in certain situations.

With Z too loose you get poor L/D as well. So playing with it's tension till you get the kite flying how you like is the way to go. Like all tuning you can actually start with some wild(large) guesses. It will be obvious if you have gone too far, you won't like the kite :-) Just bring it back 50% or even to where you started and move up or down from there in lesser increments. It is only a knot! :D

The other important bridle is C, if it is too tight compared to B and Z you loose lift and stability. You can actually observe how the bridles tension and in what order to see how the kite is tuned. B should be before C and Z, the less time B is allowed to tension the less stable the kite is. Loosening tension on one bridle also puts tension on the others, so for example loosening C tensions B and Z, and vice versa, tensioning Z loosens B and C. Other ways to observe things are how the kite flys (obvious) and what the canopy looks like. If you read around you will find plenty of talk about what change has what effect on the kite. Observing the canopy you can see bulges on B or C if they are more tight, or curve or kink at the rear if Z is tight. With Z tight the kite also takes a different appearance in the air becoming more thinner looking when sheeted in.
Pump me up wrote:

WH Lithuania
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Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby WH Lithuania » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:07 pm

Thanks guys! Feels like teenage years when I spent a lot of time with airplane models :)

Mossy, let me know how your Joker 7 flys on stock settings, and did it come with any adjustment knots or only plain tail.

Mossy 757
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Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby Mossy 757 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:07 pm

WH Lithuania wrote:Thanks guys! Feels like teenage years when I spent a lot of time with airplane models :)

Mossy, let me know how your Joker 7 flys on stock settings, and did it come with any adjustment knots or only plain tail.
I flew it yesterday in 4-8 knots in a slight wind shadow... just wanted to get it in the air in garbage conditions to see how it handles light stuff and long lulls. There's a noticeable difference in stability from my Joker 5, I think due to the increased cell count. It felt more prone to jellyfishing in the center when depowered, almost like the extra seams in the canopy give it more places to bend and deform when not experiencing airflow over the leading edge. A lot of that might go away once the kite is fully powered in clean air. It also looked like it went a bit "M" shaped when depowered and sheeted out, something new to me with Elfs (elves?)

My adjustment knots look just like the picture you posted except I have 3 knots on my Z pigtail instead of 1. Will report back once I've flown it in actual wind and had a chance to ride with the foil.

WH Lithuania
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Gear: 5,5m and 8m BWS Aeneema. Ozone hyperlink 12m. Takuma V100. BWS Mulcoy Pro 6'0.

Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby WH Lithuania » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:45 pm

Thanks Mossy. This is interesting, Roman actually said that more complex design should reduce deformation because of higher amount of connection points. I definitely need to check it on a bit more stable wind, not an offshore garbage.

What's the distance between knots on your Z line? Was it on the tightest setting when out of the box?
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Mossy 757
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Gear: Delta Hydrofoil and board. Cabrinha Velocity 9m, Flysurfer Sonic2 11m, Elf Joker-7 15m

Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby Mossy 757 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:50 pm

WH Lithuania wrote:Thanks Mossy. This is interesting, Roman actually said that more complex design should reduce deformation because of higher amount of connection points. I definitely need to check it on a bit more stable wind, not an offshore garbage.

What's the distance between knots on your Z line? Was it on the tightest setting when out of the box?
Top

Yeah, I noticed that as well, each bridle line forks into 2 before attaching to the canopy. My Z line was on the middle setting out of the box, the difference between them is about 2 inches, haven't actually measured yet.

WH Lithuania
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Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:45 pm
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Local Beach: Melnragė, Vievis
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Style: wave, hydrofoil
Gear: 5,5m and 8m BWS Aeneema. Ozone hyperlink 12m. Takuma V100. BWS Mulcoy Pro 6'0.

Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby WH Lithuania » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:24 pm

If you can please make a photo of your Z pigtail with a ruler near it. I need to figure out what does that single knot on my Z pigtail means :)

Mossy 757
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Local Beach: First Landing State Park, Virginia Beach Oceanfront
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Gear: Delta Hydrofoil and board. Cabrinha Velocity 9m, Flysurfer Sonic2 11m, Elf Joker-7 15m

Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby Mossy 757 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:32 pm

Image

B and C pigtail on the pulley lines...notice that there are 3 knots, mine is on the inner 2 knots.

Image

Here's the Z pigtail...didn't have a ruler handy so I used my car key just to give some scale. Hope that helps, since mine is a 15m I don't want you to think you can exactly copy the setup on this speed system, but it should be close.

foilholio
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Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby foilholio » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:17 am

In that first picture is that a diablo line running from the pulley to the bottom?


Are those knots for the Zmain on the C pulley line?

Mossy 757
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Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: First Landing State Park, Virginia Beach Oceanfront
Style: Kitefoil
Gear: Delta Hydrofoil and board. Cabrinha Velocity 9m, Flysurfer Sonic2 11m, Elf Joker-7 15m

Re: Elf Joker 6 9m, my first foil kite

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:19 am

:?:
foilholio wrote:In that first picture is that a diablo line running from the pulley to the bottom?


Are those knots for the Zmain on the C pulley line?
Yes, J7 has Diablo line. Damned confusing to sort out of a tangled bridle...

Those pics are of 2 different sections, top pick is B and C adjustment, bottom pic is Z. No connection, so to speak.


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