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Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

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Regis-de-giens
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Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:20 am

It is always difficult to accurately know wind speed values in marginal winds . For example my two wind meters give a difference of more than one knots side by side in about 5 knots :argue: . And on a lake for example winds can be stronger at 15m elevation.

From what I can see on this video I would actually bet that the wind gets often significantly higher than 4 knots, looking at the sea surface changes. At least with the reference i have built with my wind meters :allbegood: . Sincere and unbiaised feeling reports of non-professionnals are more reliable to my mind, based on kite flight feeling (at the zenith and taking the kite weight into account) and sea surface status since it is a bit more "universal".

What i can honestly report from my wind speed references (to be tunned with yours :thumb: ) is the following zenith ability (without kite working so no particular skills) :
- speed 3 dlx (and it should be approx the same for the sonic) : 6 knots
- aurora 22m : 5,5 knots
- speed4 lotus : 5 knots
- speed2 silver arrow : 4,5 knots
- pulsion concept air : 4- knots

Don't want to appear pretentious at all, but here is what i can report from my ride experiences (passionated by light winds and only 60kg which helps a lot :baby: ) :

- With an enormous tt (door 164cm) and kite (22m) i was able to stay upwind at about 6-7 knots, i.e before any white sheep appears anywhere on the sea, that i estimate starting to appear sporadically from 8 knots). It was the same lower end as a very skilled guy HF with a race LEI last year.

- With 12m-light weight foilkite (pulsion) and large hydrofoil wing (ketos easy), i can stay upwind at 4/5 for now (i.e as soon as more foilkite stay in the air), the probem being more to swim away from beach and prepare water start for which a light weight and quick turning kite will make the difference. The smaller wing " ketos wave" needs approx 1 more knot by comparison.

Tried to be objective and factual... :cool2:

I am taking some additional weight (now 61kg and it should pursue), so I hope that my skills improvement will, step by step, compensate it :D

coleman
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Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby coleman » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:44 am

if my 10m speed4 lotus can just barely stay in the air then i have trouble foiling, on the surface feels like only a couple of knots....surely theres a bit more 20m up

once the sp4 can sit near the side of the window and not back up then i can get foiling easily....so 5-7 kts is about the threshold for foiling.....3kts to keep it at zenith.....but i dont have a meter on the water....just guessing

foilholio
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Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby foilholio » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:53 am

Regis-de-giens wrote: Sincere and unbiaised feeling reports of non-professionnals are more reliable to my mind, based on kite flight feeling (at the zenith and taking the kite weight into account) and sea surface status since it is a bit more "universal".
I agree with this 100%. Zenith behaviour is great for knowing what the wind is, if you know how the kite behaves in a certain wind.
Regis-de-giens wrote:
What i can honestly report from my wind speed references (to be tunned with yours :thumb: ) is the following zenith ability (without kite working so no particular skills) :
- speed 3 dlx (and it should be approx the same for the sonic) : 6 knots
- aurora 22m : 5,5 knots
- speed4 lotus : 5 knots
- speed2 silver arrow : 4,5 knots
- pulsion concept air : 4- knots
except I don't quite agree with your numbers. One bigger kites hang in less wind easier and two if the kites depower point is out or the tune different you can quite easily lose 1-2knots on the low end and that includes being able to park it at zenith. Then as well different settings/setup will gain past what a standard setup will fly or go in.
Regis-de-giens wrote: 60kg which helps a lot :baby: )
A bit ? lol, how about a HUGE amount! For one larger kites are less efficient and two on the same gear a heavier rider can never match you, like the 22m.
Regis-de-giens wrote: With an enormous tt (door 164cm) and kite (22m) i was able to stay upwind at about 6-7 knots
I too could do this but my board is much bigger :-).
Regis-de-giens wrote: i.e before any white sheep appears anywhere on the sea, that i estimate starting to appear sporadically from 8 knots
I would say 7knots but 8 is close enough.
Regis-de-giens wrote:It was the same lower end as a very skilled guy HF with a race LEI last year.
Is he on a foil kite now?
Regis-de-giens wrote: With 12m-light weight foilkite (pulsion) and large hydrofoil wing (ketos easy), i can stay upwind at 4/5 for now
I am envious. I have yet to crack this upwind in 4-5 on a board I like, I have done it on a sup, but that is silly.

foilholio
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Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby foilholio » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:08 am

coleman wrote:if my 10m speed4 lotus can just barely stay in the air then i have trouble foiling, on the surface feels like only a couple of knots....surely theres a bit more 20m up

once the sp4 can sit near the side of the window and not back up then i can get foiling easily....so 5-7 kts is about the threshold for foiling.....3kts to keep it at zenith.....but i dont have a meter on the water....just guessing
I think at about 5knots you cant feel any wind with just your head above the water, below that you gradually stop feeling it standing. 2 to 3knots it is pretty hard to detect standing. Yes there is more wind higher up, it is called a gradient. The gradient decreases the less the wind is and the less obstructed it is like open ocean. Lower wind readings and estimates should be the most accurate because of that. Most riders call BS because they are never at the beach to see what can be done. Disbelief and denial are two things that seems to affect them when they do, a litany of misexplanations can follow, like it's blowing an extra 5 knots higher up etc. No doubt that can happen and I have experienced it many times, it is easy to feel with the kite by just changing it's position. In such situations you can ride with the kite near 12, but generally the kite makes not much more power at 10 or 11 than 9 in light wind.

Regis-de-giens
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Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
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Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:38 am

foilholio wrote:In such situations you can ride with the kite near 12, but generally the kite makes not much more power at 10 or 11 than 9 in light wind.
I agree, and on top of that, higher kite makes you lighter on the board which can save some tenth of knots for planning but also apparent winds thanks to board drag reduction ...

Reading your comments on wind speeds which I agree on, I would conclude that we have approx the same ranking, just a "1-knot-calibration difference" which corresponds approx to my lower wind meter; Indeed kite setting like camber and size will impact, maybe line weight and other fine parameters in a second order ; my kite analysis is based on "similar settings" or say "similar objective of settings" , i.e. some trim to avoid backstall and neutral or light cambered setting to optimize backstall; let me clarify the sizes (even if at similar sizes I would bet for approx the same ranking in the range of 10-20 m2):
- 15m speed 3 dlx (and it should be approx the same for the sonic) : 6 knots
- 22m aurora : 5,5 knots
- 10m speed4 lotus , : 5 knots
- 15 m speed2 silver arrow : 4,5 knots
- 12m pulsion concept air , thin lines : 4- knots
- Flysurfer peak 9m v1 similar to pulsion, but worse when working the kite
- my custom 19m single skin Silver Arrow is about 3 knots, still under tuning

Jojo1
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Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby Jojo1 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:35 am

https://youtu.be/0lV_KNsRuDA
"11 seconds of slilence for falen kite"
That hapens in 4 kn or less.
Here we call a session like these a triathlon session- kiting- swimming- walking back;)))
Foil kites rules!

foilholio
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Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby foilholio » Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:37 pm

:lol: Fallen dragon

coleman
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Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby coleman » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:40 pm

foilholio wrote:
coleman wrote:if my 10m speed4 lotus can just barely stay in the air then i have trouble foiling, on the surface feels like only a couple of knots....surely theres a bit more 20m up

once the sp4 can sit near the side of the window and not back up then i can get foiling easily....so 5-7 kts is about the threshold for foiling.....3kts to keep it at zenith.....but i dont have a meter on the water....just guessing
I think at about 5knots you cant feel any wind with just your head above the water, below that you gradually stop feeling it standing. 2 to 3knots it is pretty hard to detect standing. Yes there is more wind higher up, it is called a gradient. The gradient decreases the less the wind is and the less obstructed it is like open ocean. Lower wind readings and estimates should be the most accurate because of that. Most riders call BS because they are never at the beach to see what can be done. Disbelief and denial are two things that seems to affect them when they do, a litany of misexplanations can follow, like it's blowing an extra 5 knots higher up etc. No doubt that can happen and I have experienced it many times, it is easy to feel with the kite by just changing it's position. In such situations you can ride with the kite near 12, but generally the kite makes not much more power at 10 or 11 than 9 in light wind.

as to the issue of gradient, which has always been a point of contention on this forum in past lightwind threads, i really don't pay it much attention. it's almost a moot point because we are trying to make a decision to rig or not on light days and that decision is made at ground level. i've now had enough successful days on the s4 lotus when i just said "fuck it" and rigged in spite of feeling barely any wind at ground level.....with the slightest breeze that kite will launch and then i fly it around to see if there's any power. so basically, this new foil/foil setup is allowing me to kite at times when i never would have even considered rigging up. so if thats 4kts or 6kts, i really dont know.

i can only say that i'm getting incredible days on the water in barely any wind, and one by one our local crew are buying foil boards.

Regis-de-giens
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Posts: 570
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Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:12 pm

coleman wrote: so basically, this new foil/foil setup is allowing me to kite at times when i never would have even considered rigging up. so if thats 4kts or 6kts, i really dont know
I fully agree with this statement. :remybussi:
Putting figures on marginal winds is often asked by readers to illustrate , but i also personnally care much more on my session frequence significantly improved . :thumb:

foilholio
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Re: Foil Kites - 4 knots ?

Postby foilholio » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:27 am

coleman wrote: as to the issue of gradient, which has always been a point of contention on this forum in past lightwind threads, i really don't pay it much attention. it's almost a moot point because we are trying to make a decision to rig or not on light days and that decision is made at ground level. i've now had enough successful days on the s4 lotus when i just said "fuck it" and rigged in spite of feeling barely any wind at ground level.....with the slightest breeze that kite will launch and then i fly it around to see if there's any power. so basically, this new foil/foil setup is allowing me to kite at times when i never would have even considered rigging up. so if thats 4kts or 6kts, i really dont know.
Well first I make my decision to go to the beach if the wind station is reading enough wind say 10 or more knots, I have the time and usually the waves are good. The wind readings are at near kite height so are reading the higher gradient. Then if I am at the beach I choose a kite based on looking at the water, flags, trees, and reading the weather station again, etc. If it is below 10 I will still try as I can still ride, if it is below 5 I may not. If I am setup and it drops to 5 or less I will still ride or try. If I had a better board or hydrofoil I may head to the beach with under 10 knots maybe down to 5. I know with my bigger kites if it is easy to launch it is easy to ride and so the opposite is too. I often need no sand to hold the kite for setup and launch in light conditions. The kite won't need sand when landed and fully inflated either.


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