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First foil kite foil board session

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windmlv
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First foil kite foil board session

Postby windmlv » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:47 pm

After two sessions of beach practice,I took the Elf Joker 6, 9m out today.
Wind 11 to 14kts. Had to body drag out a few hundred meters to clear the kelp bed but till lots of kelp around.
It was harder to waterstart with the foil kite. It doesn't generate as much power on the downstroke, but when it accelerates it brings on the power fast.
I started to use the upstroke to get up. Nice light bar pressure. Used up a lot of nervous energy so only stayed out for 1.5 hours.
Put the kite in the water way too far out but managed a water relaunch. Don't know what I did but it came back up.
The kite really didn't sink or take on water as fast as I thought it would.
Did an unplanned jump off the foilboard as I brought the kite to 12 much too fast.
In any case, made it out and back. Pleased with the performance.
Foil session3.jpg
foil session2.jpg
foil session1.jpg

Mossy 757
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Re: First foil kite foil board session

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:07 pm

Sounds good, the first few times going out are always a bit of adjusting/adapting. Now you need to go find yourself a 15m so you can get the feel of what these things can do in the light stuff...it's unreal!

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Re: First foil kite foil board session

Postby joriws » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:02 pm

windmlv wrote:Put the kite in the water way too far out but managed a water relaunch. Don't know what I did but it came back up.
The kite really didn't sink or take on water as fast as I thought it would.
So if the kite is airtight it is not waterproof you think? The air inside the kite and the kite fabric is always less dense than water so it will float even without air inside.

What can go wrong is that you pull the kite via lines and cause water to be "scooped" in via ram air openings or wave hits in a way that some water enters the kite. But remember kite floats on top of waves as well. So if you have all 4 lines under constant tension there is very little risk water entering the kite. But if wave hits your back to loosen the lines and another wave is about to hit the kite - you might have water in.

Water inside the kite - relaunch comes harder and more risky for kite internals if the kite has 10l / 10kg of water inside. In light wind, the kite must be able to lift that water as well to reverse relaunch. On high wind after relaunch kite starting flying forwards the acceleration could be so high that cell walls cannot take it with 10kg water inside. So high winds relaunch with caution if water inside - keep kite backstalled to drain water out if your kite has drain holes on tips.

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Re: First foil kite foil board session

Postby foilholio » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:26 pm

It is a common misconception spread by many and a particular PMU, that foils sink and don't relaunch.

Relaunch with water inside is fine, you need new and better skills to do it and a kite that will drain water like flysurfers and a bit more wind than the lowend helps or makes it possible, i.e too little wind you can't do it though. Just hold the kite down wind with line tension, so one side is flying and the other, with the water in it, is well in the water and let the water drain out of the tip. It can take a while but if you a patient and don't let it fly forward and tangle up it will eventually loose what ever water is there and take off. I once did it successfully with a kite that had become 1/3 full of water, the fabric coating was old and gone and it had spent an extended time on the water, maybe because of a wind drop off I think.

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Re: First foil kite foil board session

Postby kitexpert » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:56 pm

foilholio wrote:I once did it successfully with a kite that had become 1/3 full of water
No :D If kite is 1/3 full of water, there is absolutely nothing kiter can do to get it flying. For a smaller foilkite it would mean hundreds of liters of water inside, for a big kite maybe 1500-2000l.

Years ago I had some difficulties and eventually my big Psycho took maybe 30-50l of water inside. Wind was not strong, so it didn't want to relauch and I had to drag it to the beach. It was hard work and I was worried if weight of the water would tear the cells.

Usually foil kites relaunch very well. Of course there is not unlimited time to do it like with LEI's.

OP's description on power genration of his foil is typical. High AR foil does not have instant grunt, but it needs speed to generate it. Power spike comes at the end of power stroke, but finally there is plenty of it. Longer lines and good enough flying technique helps. Foils must not get choked - especially race foils are not sheet-in-and-go kites.

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Re: First foil kite foil board session

Postby foilholio » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:25 am

You are obviously not as expert as me because I did get it flying and yes it did have that much water in it. You do realize the tip openings on flysurfer are quite big? On the bigger kites they are like 20cm in diameter. At a relatively slow flow rate of 0.1m/s that is nearly 200liters min.

kitexpert
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Re: First foil kite foil board session

Postby kitexpert » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:16 pm

If your kite really had hundreds of liters of water inside it certainly wouldn't drain itself by trying to get it in the air. Hundreds of kgs of weight would make it impossible. Lower or possibly both draining openings would be under water, the size of them is irrelevant then.

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Re: First foil kite foil board session

Postby Toby » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:41 pm

Theory vs practical experience...if he did relaunch it why not accept it?
No need to be rude about it.

PullStrings
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Re: First foil kite foil board session

Postby PullStrings » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:26 pm

foilholio wrote:It is a common misconception spread by many and a particular PMU, that foils sink and don't relaunch.

I once did it successfully with a kite that had become 1/3 full of water, the fabric coating was old and gone and it had spent an extended time on the water
" 1/3 full of water foil relaunch is the newest Foolkookio ridiculous claim "

I will side with not rude at all kitexpert on this one because he is making more sense and i have tried several times with that much water with SP3....it is a lost cause

Wingtips drain holes will let water out " once the kite is totally out of the water " and flying...not before

To do that you can't have more than 1/10 of the total inner volume filled with water...otherwise it would be way too heavy to even rise up and have a chance

Now if a wingtip section ( and not entire kite ) has filled with 1/3 of water then yes it will relaunch if there is enough wind at the surface...been there done that

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Re: First foil kite foil board session

Postby foilholio » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:27 am

It wasn't easy that was for sure and took about 10 mins.

The kite can fly with some of the kite still in the water. And the water still drains without it fully flying. If this wasn't the case I would not be able to relaunch with any water inside. Most of my relaunches involve some water and quite a few involve a stuck tip, because it is full of water. I have a very high relaunch success rate in the high 90s, this includes kites being rolled in waves. I often see inflatables end up in unrelaunchable situations more than me. That is not to say foils are better at relaunching than inflatables, maybe I am just better at relaunching than the other riders. Foils do however reverse very well, much better than any inflatable I have seen. This has saved my kites many a time and makes my relaunches much quicker than inflatables generally.
PullStrings wrote:Wingtips drain holes will let water out " once the kite is totally out of the water " and flying...not before
Incorrect. Only part of the kite needs be flying, enough to lift some of the water, creating pressure on the rest causing it to drain. This can be done with the kite in sideways position or trailing edge down position, eventually when one tip drains free it will transition to side ways, it can not be done LE down but that can sometimes be transitioned to a sideways position. It does take more than minimum relaunch wind to do this type of relaunch with any sort of speed, I would say 10knots minimum but it depends on the kite and where the water is, it certainly gets easier the more wind there is.
PullStrings wrote:To do that you can't have more than 1/10 of the total inner volume filled with water...otherwise it would be way too heavy to even rise up and have a chance
I have done it many times with 1/10. Again it doesn't need to be flying completely just out of the water enough to be pulling on the rest in the water.
PullStrings wrote:i have tried several times with that much water with SP3....it is a lost cause
Just because you can't do something doesn't mean it is impossible or a lost cause. I bet you can't do a double handle pass either? Lost cause? Relative to any handle pass relaunching a foil with water is easy.

As an ex foil kiter holding these opinions you must be one of those perpetuating the myth that foils sink or fill up with water and are unrelaunchable? Congratulations for misinforming people. Ever thought of becoming a priest? You'll have a fervent flock to suck up what ever crap you wish to give.


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