Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

For all foil kite riders


User avatar
mig27
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 750
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:54 am
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: Kijkduin, Scheveningen
Favorite Beaches: Brouwersdam, Slufter, Grevelingendam, Rockanje
Style: strapless hydrofoil and wave
Gear: Zeeko Notus5 5.5m
Flysurfer Speed 5 12m
Zeeko 2015 Pocket board
Zeeko 2016 Carbon freeride foil + racewing
Nobile woodskim 129x50 (with foil mast inserts)
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Rijswijk, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby mig27 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:22 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:Hi all,
I have ordered a light cloth Aurora v2 to give it a try. It will end up in a friend quiver, but i will use it first for some sessions and check how it flyies out of the bag.

It should be a honest review since my prefered foilkite ever for HF and TT by far is the Pulsion from Conceptair and not my former pansh aurora v1 nor FS Speed.

Let's see !
Interesting! :thumb:

I had a few minutes on the A15 12m last week, and in despite it flew very stable and steering even on 30m lines was good enough: there was a lack of power.
Much less power than my Speed5 12m, which had difficulties staying in the air in those winds.

So I am very interested to sse what the Aurora V2 will do for you! :wink:

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:09 pm

I expect a good power and good light wind stability at the zenith, but I am also afraid of a limited agility in turns; let's see

User avatar
mig27
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 750
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:54 am
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: Kijkduin, Scheveningen
Favorite Beaches: Brouwersdam, Slufter, Grevelingendam, Rockanje
Style: strapless hydrofoil and wave
Gear: Zeeko Notus5 5.5m
Flysurfer Speed 5 12m
Zeeko 2015 Pocket board
Zeeko 2016 Carbon freeride foil + racewing
Nobile woodskim 129x50 (with foil mast inserts)
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Rijswijk, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby mig27 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:52 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:I expect a good power and good light wind stability at the zenith, but I am also afraid of a limited agility in turns; let's see
The A15 12m was agile, but lacked grunt in despite the long lines.
My speed 5 of the same size on 24m lines outperformed it even skidding on your feet over the beach.
Nevertheless the A15 was much easier in 4-7kn due to the low AR, more lightweight and longer lines

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby foilholio » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:13 pm

The A15 setup standard is very stable, setup for more pull it can match a standard setup sonic or better it. Only in pull that is, I am sure a sonic could be changed in the same way.

kitexpert
Frequent Poster
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Gear: FS
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby kitexpert » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:01 pm

foilholio wrote:setup for more pull it can match a standard setup sonic or better it. Only in pull that is, I am sure a sonic could be changed in the same way.
Why aren't these kites "changed" for "more pull" at first place? Or is it perhaps so it would make kite so bad otherwise it makes no sense to do it?

And is there a need for tinkering to get kites working optimally/better? Is it really so that professional designers can't finish their own kites, with resources much beyond any hobbyist, with many prototypes and countless hours of test flights? :)

Perhaps with Pansh there is room for user work, but the main issues of these kites are much deeper than which tinkering can reach.

Tweaking foil kites is possible, but it is best not to except too much. If mod is successful in some relation, some other properties of the kite get worse. Real differencies come from much more fundamental things: kite size and AR are the most important ones, then used airfoil (thickness, camber) etc. . No matter how much you tinker A15 it does not become compareable kite to Sonic.

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:18 pm

Not sure to get your point as it reaches my english limit, but Sonic and a15 are not at all on the same segment, and i think nobody buy a A15 to try to tune it into a sonic !
A15 is more about drift, quick turn, stability , plug&play, accessibility and relaunch rather than more speed for the sonic, don't you think ?
Mig27, my bet for "good power " (i should have been more acurate with "grunt" ) was for the Aurora v2 , not a15, I think you understood.

borist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:30 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby borist » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:57 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:Hi all,
I have ordered a light cloth Aurora v2 to give it a try. It will end up in a friend quiver, but i will use it first for some sessions and check how it flyies out of the bag.

It should be a honest review since my prefered foilkite ever for HF and TT by far is the Pulsion from Conceptair and not my former pansh aurora v1 nor FS Speed.

Let's see !
What size? I'd like to hear about 12m in comparison to some known model

kitexpert
Frequent Poster
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Gear: FS
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby kitexpert » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:11 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:Not sure to get your point as it reaches my english limit, but Sonic and a15 are not at all on the same segment, and i think nobody buy a A15 to try to tune it into a sonic !
A15 is more about drift, quick turn, stability , plug&play, accessibility and relaunch rather than more speed for the sonic, don't you think ?
Foilholio wrote: "setup for more pull it can match a standard setup sonic or better it."

I'm afraid some wrong beliefs may arise if this kind of words are taken too seriously... But who would :)

Of course it is too shady and unprecise to write about the "pull" of kites in that case: A15 and Sonic are quite different kites and they produce their pull differently. But when Sonic gets going it of course pulls much more than A15, that is why it beats lesser kites when raced.

I don't know A15, but I know Sonics. I believe your descriptions Regis are correct, but I have some doubts about that "quick turn", is A15 any more about it than Sonic? Again, there is some difficulties to compare, what kind of turning? But if A15 is quicker in turns than Sonic, kudos to it - of course it has shorter wingspan to help it.

borist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:30 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby borist » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:22 pm

mig27 wrote:
Regis-de-giens wrote:I expect a good power and good light wind stability at the zenith, but I am also afraid of a limited agility in turns; let's see
The A15 12m was agile, but lacked grunt in despite the long lines.
My speed 5 of the same size on 24m lines outperformed it even skidding on your feet over the beach.
Nevertheless the A15 was much easier in 4-7kn due to the low AR, more lightweight and longer lines
Yeah, my experience with A15 is that while they are very friendly to fly, they lack a bit in useable power compared to some FS models and in depower range as well. It is a lovely foil kite (especially for the price) but I would not put it the same level as Speed 5 (or Sonic). I tested A15 18m side by side my Sonic 11 (with hydrofoil) and came to conclusion that I can ride the same low end wind with both, but faster and lot more fun with Sonic. Sold 18m shortly after.
A12 12m is little better handling of course, but I hardly ride it for the same reason, keeping it as spare. A15 9m is the best of them, however it offers no power or upwind advantage over my ASV XR 9m race LEI. Again did few side by side tests. A15 9m is easier to handle in marginal wind condition though, hands down. Better float and relaunch.
I'm quite curious about new Aurora in 12m, whether it is noticeably faster flying than A15 (not faster turning). That would make it an interesting option. Turning speed actually don't bother me that much.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Best foil kites you have never heard of!?

Postby foilholio » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:56 am

@Borist you can try flattening and shortening the Z bridle to get more power but reduced turning. You add extensions to lengthen the tips( in a smooth arc,you could try match Z to C like I did on my genesis) then shorten all of Z.


kit??expert?? wrote:Why aren't these kites "changed" for "more pull" at first place? Or is it perhaps so it would make kite so bad otherwise it makes no sense to do it?


Because everyone likes a different kite. This is why the market has a wide variety of kites, low AR, high AR, tube, foil, single skin. etc. Foils designed for maximum pull have worse upwind and stability.
kit??expert?? wrote:And is there a need for tinkering to get kites working optimally/better?


Lets not confuse a general optimal with what one person likes over another. Because of the reason mention above "everyone likes a different kite" and also the materials , i.e. lines and fabric, never remain static, being able to adjust a kite is essential to maintain or achieve certain flight qualities. No company on earth has been able to design materials for fabric kites that maintain flight qualties 100% over time, despite what Gunnar claims about Ozones new pulley lines :-)
kit??expert?? wrote:Is it really so that professional designers can't finish their own kites


Not at all, it's just with a sport as diverse as kitesurfing, and serial production, designing a kite for everyone that suites them all perfectly is not possible. There is fault on the designer part though, and this is some of criticism I have against you, kite designers have limits, I think which stems from there own experience, on how they can view why kites should be designed out side of what they think is optimal. This is why thinner kites, strutless kites and even foils, while heavily criticize by some designers and riders, still yet find a market and a market that is desperate for more. Designers seem to need to come from left field like with Greg at BRM to design these things. L/D is awesome but not everything.
kit??expert?? wrote: with resources much beyond any hobbyist, with many prototypes and countless hours of test flights? :)


Yes but the resources are devoted to generally a limited area. This why we have probably about 100+ custom molded versions of chicken loops. One concept lots of resource thrown at it. No one can think outside of the one box. It's a human problem I think. Herd mentality. It's why the oddball brings the new idea first.
kit??expert?? wrote:Perhaps with Pansh there is room for user work


Certainly, they are not as refined as flysurfers in design for sure, but then they have different kites to flysurfer. The great irony is flysurfers quickly go out of tune and the same things that are often needed on a Pansh are needed on a flysurfer or any foil.

kit??expert?? wrote: but the main issues of these kites are much deeper than which tinkering can reach


I don't think so. The alterations funalex did to the aurora1 are really impressive. And show what an advanced tinkerer ( and now kitedesigner :lol: ) can achieve. Things like bridle placements and canopy are difficult but not impossible to alter either. "About" the only major thing wrong is if A is not being placed far enough forward, B can always retard A, but A sets a limit. Of course there is other things but that is an example.
kit??expert?? wrote:Tweaking foil kites is possible


Glad you acknowledge it.
kit??expert?? wrote: but it is best not to except too much.
Of course there are limits.
kit??expert?? wrote: If mod is successful in some relation, some other properties of the kite get worse.
That can often be the case but it is not always!
kit??expert?? wrote: Real differencies come from much more fundamental things: kite size and AR are the most important ones, then used airfoil (thickness, camber) etc.
Yes and camber and arc are alterable on foils. I can discern "Real" differences. But hey maybe you just have trouble observing things, we had that discussion :lol: OR maybe you just have a strange understanding of what Real is.
kit??expert?? wrote: No matter how much you tinker A15 it does not become compareable kite to Sonic.
Of course. They are vastly different kites. But for some thing as simple as pull, yes this can be altered and in fact increased past the "standard" Sonic. The Sonic 2 has the diablo line so "pull" will increase on that and of course anyone can alter a Sonic to increase pull most likely beyond an altered A15.
kit??expert?? wrote:
Regis-de-giens wrote:Not sure to get your point as it reaches my english limit, but Sonic and a15 are not at all on the same segment, and i think nobody buy a A15 to try to tune it into a sonic !
A15 is more about drift, quick turn, stability , plug&play, accessibility and relaunch rather than more speed for the sonic, don't you think ?
Foilholio wrote: "setup for more pull it can match a standard setup sonic or better it."

I'm afraid some wrong beliefs may arise if this kind of words are taken too seriously... But who would :)
It can.

kit??expert?? wrote:Of course it is too shady and unprecise to write about the "pull" of kites in that case
No not at all Pull or Grunt is merely a lay mans term for the aerodynamic force, which is the lift and drag combined.
kit??expert?? wrote:A15 and Sonic are quite different kites and they produce their pull differently
.

Yes they can, but the Sonic would need a thinner airfoil to achieve that :-) You will have to make an admission either way.
kit??expert?? wrote:But when Sonic gets going it of course pulls much more than A15, that is why it beats lesser kites when raced.


Nope just because one has greater pull or force does not mean one will win races. The force needs to point more forward and! be good or greater. If you have a really large force but it merely points backwards you will never go upwind. Races have upwind annnd downwind sections.


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests