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Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:12 am
by pmaggie
I read the this thread quite quickly, so I hope I didn't miss anything... Any comparison between the HL 12 and the Speed 5 12 with a standard TT? Different kites and AR, I know, but since the Speeds are (were?) at the moment the more "friendly" foils for freeriding it would be interesting to test them head to head...

Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:40 am
by mgs
Wouldn't differences in Projected Area need to be factored in when making a comparison.

Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:00 am
by Hardwater Kiter
Yes. But IMO that comparison would b much like a Chrono V2/Hyperlink comparison and though, like a Speed 5/HLV1 comparison, it would a comparison of essentially 2 different types, it still would be interesting to see. Also like the Chrono V2 the Speed 5, in this period of Uber efficient high-performance race foils, has been marketed as Flysurfer's more user-friendly offering. Which compared to the Sonic series it is more user-friendly. The Chrono V2 compared to the V1 is considerably easier to manage as well. But the Hyperlink seems to be positioned to be even more user-friendly than either the Chrono V2 or the Speed 5 in an effort to help those who aren't familiar with foil kites access this potential with less intimidation than the higher AR/performance kites induce.

Will it do this? I don't know. We have clients that ride water come to us and they still get freaked out by the number of bridles in a Viron! :-). But once they see how ground handling a bridles foil works, they soon learn it's not so scary.

We have the Hyperlink as a demo. I haven't had a chance to ride it but have done a number of static flight comparison with several other kites in the same size range. Just to see how it compares to say, the Frenzy or Chrono etc... I was surprised a bit by the power for it's size and the lift. I don't ride water so any input with on water comparisons, I'm interested in hearing.

Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:22 pm
by early bird2
Hardwater , I don't think we should even talk about the V2 since this is an entirely different kite way more racy and better performer than the HP . I demoed the 12 and ended up ordering an Ultra light V2 11 .
I would place the HP between an Access and a Manta . Low AR , easy to use . For unstable winds and kites 9 meters and less this could be a very good choice . Did you experiment the fifth line /winter mode ? I'm not certain the modified mode is such a good idea . The kite would benefit to be lighter and this could probably be achieved by building an HP as a closed or open cells kite only . I would not be surprised to see an Ultra light HP soon .

Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:32 pm
by Hardwater Kiter
I disagree. We are talking general comparisons to the best of my knowledge and yes the CHV2 is a "higher performance" (depending on what kind of performance you are looking for) wing than the HLV1. But this does not mean that it is "low" performance. I think it's a mistake to equate lower AR with lower performance. In my experience, some of the highest performance kites I've ridden have been in the same AR range as the HLV1 and I suspect that in the right hands it will be quite a sporty little rig. :-)

In regards to a Manta/Access comparison. I think it's hard to quantify that comparison given how dated the Manta is and how many revisions the Access has had. A current equivalent to your comparison would probably be a SummitV4/AccessV7 which IMO = the Frenzy V10. The HLV1 is somewhat similar to the FRV10 but still very very different in AR and handling in direct side by side comparison. Initial impressions are that if both sizes are the same, the HLV1 has more grunt than the Frenzy. It will be interesting to see where the Blizzard V1 falls into the range as I suspect it will be more in line with what you described.

I have not installed the 5th line on the HLV1 yet. I should see the 5th line kits today. If so I hope to install one and see how it does sometime this afternoon. I have done comparisons in launch/relaunch of the HLV1 in both open and closed mode and honestly saw very little difference. IMO it was almost better in closed mode but the winds were pretty light and I don't think it was the best comparison.

Though I don't have pricing for a UL version currently, I agree we will likely see a UL option in the HLV1 at some point. Sure, the kite could benefit from a little weight loss. In smaller kites, I'm not a big proponent of UL versions as I just don't think the benefit vs. cost is there. (Unless the goal is compactability for travel.) Kites aren't cheap and UL is great if you can afford it and more importantly, afford to replace it due to the tradeoff in durability/longevity. For my tastes, I like durability. I love the R1V1 because it runs circles around the Chrono V2UL, even in light conditions and is made of standard material. But in the race kite arms race, it's not much use. :-(

There seems to be a lot of hangup on the HLV1 intakes and the added weight that they offer. IMO and for my purposes, I don't think they add so much that it's worth worrying about and, the intakes are part of the design features that make the kite unique in its versatility and design goal. Take the R1 or Chrono or Sonic etc... They could also be made lighter by dumping the intakes they have and making them open cell. They would be like the Zeekai which is fine unless you are riding the water and dunk the wing. :-) There's a reason they killed the Zeekai and are making a new closed cell version.

Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:09 pm
by early bird2
Hardwater , good point of view , I know you have lots of experience with foil kites .
I did not ride the Summit and I thought it was a modified version of the Manta which I enjoyed a lot * especially the 8 meters * before I went Chronos . I had Frenzy's back in 2003 , 2004 and then switched to Manta's . The last Frenzy I had was a 2016 5 meters that behaved very badly and I got rid of it after 4 sessions . So I can't compare the HP to the Frenzy but I know you can .
I do have the 4 and 6 Access V7 and they have their places in very gusty winds , incredibles kites for that purpose . So I understand very well that low AR have their respectives places .
When I talk about the weight of the HP I think mainly about the 12 meters , for me 12 meters and up , Ultra light is the way to go . I do have a 17 R1V2 and this kite stay in the air in the lightest wind , unbelievable .
I don't know about the Blizzard V1 , last time I went on Ozone site it was not there .
Now , let's pray for lots of snow and a cold winter .....

Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:15 pm
by Regis-de-giens
kitexpert wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:33 pm
By its design it is more ambitious than for example Pulsion, so if I had to choose between these I would definately take Hyperlink.
Could you please detail your a-priori ? Because i know a kite teacher on foilkites for years, medium skilled hydrofoiler and very high skilled surfer (with kite) ; he owns the two and feels the Hyperlink is (even) more stable , cloth is more thick and resistant, relaunch after long water is better, but at contrario Pulsion is more adapted to hyper light winds, but also more rapid in line (and up-wind angle) , quicker and more powerfull turns, more boost in general, and requires a bit more skill but "gives more". So HL better for beginners and Pulsion for advanced riders. Even if both share the same overall target of course (kite easy, efficient and fun).

Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:54 pm
by kitexpert
Hyperlink is more complex by its construction than Pulsion. I can't believe this design, material and cost effort is in vain. Ozone is big company with big resources and it is long time known one of the technological leaders in paragliding industry - remembering that gliders are by far most advanced foil wings. ConceptAir is AFAIK a small company which has produced mainly simple kites for snow kiting.

I've of course noticed their latest kites which are more advanced.

It is true that Pulsions concept is logical, to produce extremely light weight kite for the lightest of winds. It however compromises line drag for that goal. Also the looks and perhaps handling of the bridle may be intimidating, at least for new foil kite users.

Ozones answer was "minimal bridle" - which is a kind of compromise by itself. But there is more design there anyway.

Details I don't see very justified in Pulsion are side by side air intakes in the middle. Also the bridle could be cleaner/having a bit less drag if it was cascaded more. I don't like even number cell count either, odd number is better and widely used.

Small things of course, but I can't overlook them.

From the pictures it seems Pulsion is thinner kite than Hyperlink, which looks quite thick to my eye. Also reported grunty feel and better stability of Hyperlink support that observation. In general I don't see making kites thinner a way to make kites better. Thin airfoil has many drawbacks including resulting worse cell shape, less overall rigidity, twitchier behaviour and less lift and stability.

You have already shown wonderful capabilities of Pulsion kite in extremely low winds. I could perhaps do a snowkite video where mid AR kite is inferior to more efficient kite. In the winter I do some long distance trips where few things are more annoying than having a lesser kite than your companion has. Then you work harder doing much more turns upwind and when you finally come to place to rest your friend has been waiting for you and is ready to continue quickly before he feels cold.

Hope this clears my views.

Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:50 pm
by mgs
Saw this video on Vimeo, not sure whats being said, but should imagine its very positive.Can anyone translate. ?
Impressed with how fast the HL inflates, very stable launch.
phpBB [video]

Re: New foil from Ozone

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:23 pm
by WH Lithuania
I had a couple of sessions in sketchy lake conditions this weekend with Hyperlink 12m and Takuma V100 foil. I must say I'm very impressed. I was able to ride it in luls when I thought it completely stopped to blow. It generates a lot of power very smoothly by simply sheeting the bar in or working the kite. That constant power helps a lot with tacks. Bridle is very simple and lines are thick. Material is not the ultra light for sure but looks very durable. Easy to fly in sketchy conditions, nothing to compare with high aspect race kites.

There are some things that could be improved in the future generations :
1) After few drops, one side of the canopy wrapped over the bridle over the front and I wasn't able to unwrap it while in the air by pulling lines. It's probably because of that very simple bridle and I don't think it was a coincidence.
2) I was using 45cm bar and kite felt slow. Maybe longer bar would help but I doubt it will become very agile kite.
3) When a serious gust comes I don't feel that the kite depowers it just pulls like a train.
4) It drinks water pretty fast, at least drainage works well!
5) I would like to see even more stable kite for my sketchy conditions I usually ride.
6) The bar could be a bit lighter. It's hot heavy, but it's not as light as race foils.

Overall I can't imagine light days without Hyperlink anymore. I'm super happy to ride it when my 8m inflatable isn't big enough.