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New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

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F-Bear
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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby F-Bear » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:01 pm

Hi all, time for another update !

Yesterday we had 10kts with gusts to 17kts or so. As a reminder, I kite at a small lake with crazy winds. REALLY want to figure out how to fly my A15 12m so set it up and launched. If anything, just getting time on it at this location is good....the field I use to testing has far smoother wind and flying the kite there is pretty easy.

In any event, I had problems and am hoping by describing them the foil experts here can assist me ! Immediately after launching it straight downwind (no other option...no room) I tried to hold it at around 40degrees to my left so I could grab my hydrofoil board and get onto the water. But the kite kept shooting way forward and then folding itself up. Recovered it a couple times through dumb luck but then it folded up and twisted and fell through the bridle and was done...wouldn't fix itself or fly. The bridles where totally tangled (holy freaking COWS what a mess ! I know I know...part of foil kites but as an LEI guy this is crazy!) and I still wanted to try and learn the hydrofoil board so packed up the Pansh and got out my trusty 9m Switch Element. I did manage two or three "get up and go" attempts with the Element and hydrofoil board but it is very challenging to me to fly the kite one-handed in those winds. Practice makes perfect and I'll keep trying. And now I know why folk love their carbon hydrofoils.....carrying mine back from way downwind it became very very heavy. ha ha ha.

So am I not sheeting in enough on the Pansh? and that is why it goes crazy at the edge of the window? Flying it at 12 o'clock appears to be what foils like from reading posts on this site; is that the solution? Keep in mind the winds are GUSTY and scary....and I prefer to not get lofted into the street or powerlines so flying it at 12 o'clock at this spot is not preferred (if that is the solution).

I have my bar set like a normal LEI bar would be...Trim fully powered and bar pulled to chicken loop the lines are even at the kite. Is that right for this kite?

One last question...trying to figure out how to attach to the ELC (easy line connectors)...I am doing it wrong but have not found a picture or post yet that explains how it is done. How is this supposed to be done?

Really appreciate all the help on this journey. Not many other kiters around to help me out, and zero foil folk. There was another kiter at the lake and we spoke for a bit...he was on an Epic Infinity and totally overpowered during the gusts. At least his kite was flying most of the time.....my little 9m spent a lot of time in the water trying to relaunch. Makes me wonder "hey, if I did go out with the Pansh how would it have handled the gusts?".

Oh yeah..I do have a 'review' for those interested in Pansh A15 (sort of). I bought a set of their 15 meter lines for this kite and the custom bar I am messing with. Well.....not so sure about the lines. Especially the steering lines. They tangle SUPER easy. It is ridiculous...some sort of auto-tangle technology. The lines are not nearly as "stiff" as my other lines and just makes a mess if not always under tension. My local conditions are pretty bad (debris all over launch area, gusty winds, lack of experience, etc.) so maybe this is a non-event for other folk. But thought I'd mention it. I've swapped the steering lines with some old Best lines and will swap out the mains once I make up some lines for them.

F-Bear

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby foilholio » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:11 am

F-Bear wrote:I tried to hold it at around 40degrees to my left
Foils are most stable at 12 directly overhead. There they are balanced and least likely to fold with slack lines.
F-Bear wrote: But the kite kept shooting way forward and then folding itself up
If you have 3-6 inches of oversheet or backstall on the bar setup, you can use that to help prevent overflying. Sheeting in either way will help prevent overflying.

Z more slack will be easier to control and less likely to overfly. Z tight is more likely to over fly. As the kite ages Z bridle will shrink. This happens quite dramatically in about the first 20-30 hours.
F-Bear wrote: So am I not sheeting in enough on the Pansh? and that is why it goes crazy at the edge of the window?
Yes
F-Bear wrote: Flying it at 12 o'clock appears to be what foils like from reading posts on this site; is that the solution?
Yes and sheeting in and maybe change Z.
F-Bear wrote:Keep in mind the winds are GUSTY and scary
Gusty is always very difficult with a foil. That said a skilled foil flyer seems to be able to out do tubes, as I have seen, but certainly not easy.


F-Bear wrote: and I prefer to not get lofted into the street or powerlines so flying it at 12 o'clock at this spot is not preferred
It may or it may not be an option, ultimately it's your safety and you need to decide.

Downwind not clear or safe is the most risky thing you can do in this sport and an easy path to death. That said lofting vertically is not the danger it is made out to be. Small kites often said to be safer because they are less likely to loft you are also the most dangerous if they do loft you. Small kites usually drop you like a rock, especially if you stall them. Where as large kites even if stalled are survivable or even soft. You can also get lofted sideways with the kite low, and there is no soft landing from this unless on water. In all situations your best friend is water and plenty of it downwind. Also learn to land jumps softly, I suggest gently sine the kite. And use the release before you get in a dangerous situation. Have safe margin downwind etc and when you near or cross it then release.
F-Bear wrote: I have my bar set like a normal LEI bar would be...Trim fully powered and bar pulled to chicken loop the lines are even at the kite. Is that right for this kite?
Experienced foil kiters usually have over sheet on the bar or trim.
F-Bear wrote: One last question...trying to figure out how to attach to the ELC (easy line connectors)...I am doing it wrong but have not found a picture or post yet that explains how it is done. How is this supposed to be done?
Couldn't find a vid.

https://flysurfer.com/download/4863/ Page 10, section 3.4 .

F-Bear wrote: They tangle SUPER easy. It is ridiculous...some sort of auto-tangle technology.
Line might have twists. Untwist by tying to something and running both hands with friction down entire lines many times. You can also run the line over and around something like a harness hook. You are basically making the line maintain it's orientation over the hook or through hands which forces twists out. Otherwise if you can hang the lines in no wind ... :-) that will work.
F-Bear wrote: The bridles where totally tangled (holy freaking COWS what a mess !
Never disconnect anything or pull tight. 30seconds I bet I would surprise you. Tangles are the crux of foils.

F-Bear
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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby F-Bear » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:37 pm

Thanks Foilholio ! The manual for the flysurfer kite was really cool to read....I just squinted hard and pretended it said "Pansh Manual". ha ha ha ha. That was a top-drawer manual; maybe someday I'll own a Flysurfer. The Soul model looks very interesting. But for now, I shall learn and get experience with my A15. REALLY wanna get good at flying it, gusts and all.

I got the ELC sorted out, they are now connected the correct way.

And I've got a normal 1:1 bar hooked up to the kite now....I'll play around with it and figure a normal bar is better to learn with since I am not used to a 2:1 bar.

F-Bear

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:27 pm

Try to shorten a bit the length of SPL C line (which goes from A to Z and through the C pulley) , Like -10 cm as a starter). Before doing it very properly
, you can try first by making a local knot on this line to avoid disconnecting all the speed system.

You should gain in stability (against a bit of power) ;

lengthen Z by adding 10 cm extensions goes to the same profile change but you would have to also shorten 10 cm on your rear lines to recover the same AoA.

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby TomW » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:12 pm

You shouldn't be trying to learn to hydrofoil using a kite that you are unfamiliar with or have to pay attention to while trying get going on Hydrofoil.

F-Bear
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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby F-Bear » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:50 pm

Tom W - Hi. I agree 100% ! Trying to do two totally new things at the same time is a bad strategy......unfortunately for me I live in an area with low winds. The reason I bought the A15 was because the internet says that foil kites can fly in lower wind. I also bought a hydrofoil for the same reason; they work well in lower winds. I want to spend more time on the water so am hoping this combo will do the trick. There are certainly other options for me, but the $350 price tag of the A15 was a big selling point. If it works out maybe I'll invest in an ultralight foil in a bigger size.

A guy here flies a giant inflatable with some success (he doesn't hydrofoil though), but I choose the 12m A15 since a large kite doesn't appear to work well with hydrofoiling and our winds. They are low, with low low low lulls...but we also get 2X or even 3X gusts which means with a bigger kite you got a problem. I own an old Best 17m Waroo which is AWESOME for flying in steady coastal winds but totally useless in my local area. Once a lull hits and it won't fly, game over !

Last few weeks have been really low winds......not even the A15 can fly. Hoping to get some wind tomorrow and resume my journey of learning to hydrofoil and fly a foil kite. In the meantime....I've been doing a ton of skating with my longboard. Keeps the board skills up but not nearly as fun as being on the water.

F-Bear

F-Bear
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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby F-Bear » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:53 am

Hi All,

I've been very busy with other stuff so haven't been doing much kiting. But I wanted to update anyone interested....IMHO the A15 (mine is a 12 meter) flies WAY better on a 2:1 bar. I've switched back and forth a number of times now, and for me, with my local conditions, the 2:1 is the hot setup.

Why? We have really gusty winds and the 2:1 bar allows me to quickly adjust power....with a normal bar I could not access the full range of the kite since its "throw" is so long. The 2:1 bar also gives it some bar pressure and makes steering it feel more like a regular LEI kite (I am new to foils). And finally, it is easy to include oversheeting so you can backstall the kite (which is just AWESOME !!! ). With my normal bar, if I set it up for some backstall the amount of depower I had was really limited. In smooth winds no problem (just adjust the trim line as needed) but with our winds I need to adjust NOW so that was a bit annoying. I LOVE LOVE LOVE being able to instantly go from full power to mega-depower, I think it is only possible with a 2:1 bar on this kite unless you got super long arms and a normal bar with a ton of throw on it.

So hope this helps someone thinking about an A15.....if you get one and are frustrated by the slow steering and not being able to fully depower it, try a 2:1 bar ! I actually don't really like the extra complexity of a 2:1 bar...and really wanted to use a normal bar on this kite. But in back to back flying it the 2:1 just works better for me.

Oh, and I settled on 12 meter lines. Works great !

F-Bear

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby foilholio » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:03 am

12m lines on a 12 meter kite is quite short, interesting to hear it's working well. I guess the fact the A15 has such a long bridle plays into why you can go that short. It is probably more like 15m lines on a Flysurfer.

Glad you are enjoying the kite I think they are good. Not to over complicate things so don't consider this now or even for a year but changing the Mixer system will give some of the 2:1 bar benefits and some others.

Thanks for the update.

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby F-Bear » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:09 pm

Hello All,

I wanted to update this old post. Have not been flying the A15 to much, mostly because it is a bit scary in our gusty winds and I do not have much experience with foils. However, I recently bought a Peak4 5m and have been flying it a lot....and I feel it has dramatically improved my flying skills since the Peak4 talks to you via flapping. The Peak has educated me on backstalling, sheeting, looping, all sorts of fun stuff since it is NEVER scary due to instant depower and small size. And then the Jackomixer mod for the Genesis and A15 came out, so I decided to give the A15 another go.

And well.....anyone who has an A15 (mine is a 12m in standard cloth) should really give the Jackomixer a try. It changes the A15. The thing I really struggled with on the A15 is the sheeting....it takes a HUGE amount of throw on the bar to go from backstall to depower, way more than my arms can handle. But the Jackomixer reduces that throw to something manageable. It is still a lot of throw, but my confidence is up.

So I ended up with the Jackomixer, and the bar is a normal 4-line with 18m lines. The first Jackomixer flight was with the 12m lines noted in posts above, and that did not go well....kite was unstable (probably due to gusting winds and my lack of skill). So I decided that maybe the short lines where pinching the kite or something, so switched to 18 meter lines. I also adjusted the steering lines so with the bar all the way in and trim set for full power, the lines are about 3 inches shorter than the main lines. Yes, that is a bit different than a normal LEI setup but it allows me to backstall the kite and hold it on the ground. During a gust, this also allows me to keep it from overflying. And yeah, I learned this from watching the Peak...it never overflies since all that flapping is draggy and keeps it back.

There are no other mods to my kite, just the Jackomixer. And wow...in light wind it is a dream. If you ask it for power, it is there. LOTS OF IT. But now....it has full depower too since the Jackomixer allows me to access it with a reasonable bar throw (I am at around 70-80 cm of throw...that is a lot compared to regular bars !). I can sweep it from one side to the other, down low through the power zone, and push bar out and the power significantly drops off. The bar throw is actually longer than my arms can reach, but did that so if needed I can just let go of bar and the kite power drops a ton. And then pull bar back to me, no problem. I'd like to be able to access full range of this kite with a normal amount of bar throw (like the Peak!) but that probably make the bar pressure even higher than it is now. Plus not sure how to do that, without a 2:1 pulley bar or maybe Jackomixer 2.0 ?? ha ha.

If you have bought an A15 and didn't like it....try the Jackomixer and a bar with tons of throw and tuned for backstall. The kite still takes a lot more concentration (and the lower tip when static flying to the side folds up, but goes away if moving) to fly than my Peak, but that is OK. I'll landboard with it to gain experience then eventually try it out on the hydrofoil when the wind is to low for the Peak4. I do think a 9m A15 in ultralight cloth would be a better option for when the wind is to low for 5m Peak4. Will have to decide if an 8m Peak4 or an smaller A15 (or Genesis) in ultralight cloth is the best option for me....the 12m may be to much during light wind gusts. Plus, the prime consideration is keeping the kite flying in lulls so an 8m Peak is probably better....but I digress. Maybe that is another topic for later.

Bottom line here is A15 12m in standard cloth + Jackomixer mod + normal bar with 18m lines tuned for heavy backstall with bar all the way in = good times !

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby kitexpert » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:17 pm

No doubt there is heavy backstall when B-C is pulled 2x of normal. However Z is pulled less than 2x as much as normally, this decreases achievable max L and increases back stall tendency even more. Excessive pull of B-C makes kite fly and behave slower compared to linear or camber increasing AoA increase.

Positive thing is this high pull for B-C helps to fight front stalling, however at this stage some depowerability is already lost. This is (mainly) because of wing instability, it is not a mixer or bridle issue.

Heavy backstall on bar is dangerous for boosting: when kite stalls in the middle of the jump you will drop like a rock. Then good luck with pushing bar out and hoping Jacko-Pansh gets alive again :roll:


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