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More wings, the hard way?

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foilonfoil
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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby foilonfoil » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:22 pm

tahoedirk wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:06 pm
Wow! Not a comment, addition or anything, I'm pouring my guts out, for years, every hard won tip that I can share.. I always hope I reach at least one interested builder.
I would love to have the time to build my own wings and it is interesting to learn how others fab up test designs.

In terms of build approach, I would purchase metal molds CNC'ed from solidwoks, and use carbon fiber layup/compression techniques. Molds are pretty inexpensive but take a few weeks. As an alternative, CNC'ing a piece of G10 would be a quick way of validating a design before building molds.

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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby lupociotto » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:50 pm

Looks like there are some roots in model aircraft planes...same with me.

Just for fun I buil my own foil 2 years ago, works well, but front wing has too much of curve in it.
You can watch the pictures here:
http://surfforum.oase.com/showthread.php?t=162792

My idea was the following:
- Design a wing that is pretty much on the simple side (trapezoid outline), hot wire cutting of the moulds out from XPS.
- for the curve of the wing simpy make another mould from XPS, and bend the moulds over this.

The outcome was not super precise, and like stated too much curve in it, nevertheless the foil works really really well....a lot of stability, low end, and never ever the slightest humming from the wing...only some aluminium strut humming...

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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby tahoedirk » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:15 am

Nice FOF me too . I have time , less money , definitely lower tech. I'm afraid hand building is getting more rare. Whatever , I use a computer and data base too. Steel molds pre preg and foamy carbon and nanotubes , ovens and more hoses sound great too . I have kgs of pretty carbon and gallons of epoxy . Validating a design hmmm yes that is the big deal for sure. I did just make a mold that took way less time than glassing a foam wing nicely.
Yup Lup
Definitely RC wings. 110 gram 1.5 meter DLG wings
Cool,
Curvy yes, but massive sweep on that wing too. Tuning a new foil is harder than building unless you're lucky, which happens!
I tried making some molds with the cutouts, bending is super tough, last ones I mitered the anhedral effectively. Lots of work!

Looking more like I have a 550 and a 700, high hopes for the 550
Thanks guys

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downunder
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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby downunder » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:51 am

tahoedirk wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:02 pm
.
.

Yes Blackrat you would think so, but no. Every time I glass a wing, I say never again. There is no easy way to wrap and finish the LE. You fill the center, fiddle and sand and mess up the profile over and over and you are still left with a less than bomber piece. A mold is so much easier to layup and I like a solid carbon wing, especially in this size range. My 1600 would weigh 4kg and start a fire if it was solid though. Solid parts do not break or dent ,they are easily refined, they fix easily and last forever.
.
.
It is possible tho. The mast LE and TE is way longer and I've used this (sorry if seen already). The TE is sharp as.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaj0SMtY8CA

For the wings I've got quite nice results with wrapping the core as well. All vacuum, not much sanding at all.

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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby opie » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:06 pm

Are there no registration bumps on that mold? You were able to line it up just by eye?
Those wings are impressive.

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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby plummet » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:13 pm

foilonfoil wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:22 pm
tahoedirk wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:06 pm
Wow! Not a comment, addition or anything, I'm pouring my guts out, for years, every hard won tip that I can share.. I always hope I reach at least one interested builder.
I would love to have the time to build my own wings and it is interesting to learn how others fab up test designs.

In terms of build approach, I would purchase metal molds CNC'ed from solidwoks, and use carbon fiber layup/compression techniques. Molds are pretty inexpensive but take a few weeks. As an alternative, CNC'ing a piece of G10 would be a quick way of validating a design before building molds.
To you have a cnc mill you can use for free? Milling molds from metal is very expensive if you have to pay for milling time. Its definately out of the reals of reality for most home builders who dont have a full fab workshop at their disposal!

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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby TomW » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:02 pm

Dirk,

Are you laying in carbon wet, in layers. Into Both halves and then clamping together before the cure? Cure during clamp?

I've come to conclusion to either have wing plug cnc milled by a contact I have, or 3D print it on my SLA printer at work( in 5 parts and glue together). Then make molds like you do.
I'm pretty good at CAD and have solidworks. I can tweak the tips by hand after milling /printing because that's really difficult to get right in Cad.

For layup, my plan was to put down 2-3 mm CF first and vacumm bag it. Then go back and fill up void with glass fiber, then clamp together. V-bag stage is to ensure good compact CF against mold. I've never done this kind of molding. What do you think?

tahoedirk
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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby tahoedirk » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:41 pm

nope Opie, no alignment, the nature of the mold makes them fit together perfect , one half has a convex flange and the other is concave. and thanks

If anyone wants to try this method to make a mold , you will be shocked how simple it is. Compared to any other method I have come up with , this one is so simple. I nailed that part, you can too. I have been trying for years to simplify making a quick and dirty mold. Get some orange cleaner and then make something!

Yea Tom, wet everything. I will do that extra step when I'm trying for a perfect finish. I do a couple layers of hi quality 270g and uni then release then breather then vac. It works pretty well but not always clean enough to justify the extra work. Pinholes are my nemesis. I am really still just fixated on design , not out of the mold finish. Tweaking these wingtips was easy by hand, I shaved a bit off the tip, then flushed out the lower surface, creating a little twist, washout, whatever , and eliminating the lower surface camber. Not overfilling the mold is essential when using a less than rigid mold, then you barely need clamps. I have been very happy with the finish and impregnation that I get with 20 oz 2x2 that I get from Soller composites for 32$/yd that's like 20$/lb It has an open weave and rarely have I seen a dry spot. If I spend extra time working resin into that first layer , it works well . Some of the more dense cloth is hard to saturate.
Laminating a wing in an hour or two quick and dirty is not a daunting task, but add a few steps and suddenly it is an all day affair.

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downunder
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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby downunder » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:42 am

foilonfoil wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:22 pm
tahoedirk wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:06 pm
Wow! Not a comment, addition or anything, I'm pouring my guts out, for years, every hard won tip that I can share.. I always hope I reach at least one interested builder.
I would love to have the time to build my own wings and it is interesting to learn how others fab up test designs.

In terms of build approach, I would purchase metal molds CNC'ed from solidwoks, and use carbon fiber layup/compression techniques. Molds are pretty inexpensive but take a few weeks. As an alternative, CNC'ing a piece of G10 would be a quick way of validating a design before building molds.
Depends where you live. If remember well, in Canada the molds are about $5000. In Perth that would be much much more.

But, here is a catch, I do not consider this as DIY, since the molds are factory machined! Half way to mass production and not a diy in my books :)

@Dirk,

yeah, I did go that path, I can make a mold in no time as you do, same technique. The problem for me was the molds were to flexible and they wrapped under vac. Are you pulling full vac on those?

Still unsure how do you solve compression under the fuse? Is that solid carbon under?

bigcane
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Re: More wings, the hard way?

Postby bigcane » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:27 am

Hi Tahoedirk,

Pretty cool way to do a mold, I might try out your method next time around. Lately I have been into surf foils, first one (red wing) was hand shaped plywood front wing, wood core fuse with all the other parts coming out of molds. Came out pretty well but the wing is on the small side at 1100. So now I want to build a bigger wing, 1350. I hotwired a foam core and inserted a carbon wrapped wood core fuse. I was thinking of just vac’ing on the carbon skins but now I am worried the wing will snap near the fuse connection due to compression. Maybe I should insert some vertical plywood stringers into the wing and butting up against the fuse. What do you think?
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