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Best way to make a prototype

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Kitemanmuc
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Best way to make a prototype

Postby Kitemanmuc » Tue May 29, 2018 5:42 am

So i am deep down the rabbit hole, designing a modular hydrofoil. I have a fuselage prototype out of aluminum and I have the designs for 3 masts, 75cm, 95cm, 105cm, 3 wings, SUP, freeride, race and 2 stabilizer, race and freeride. All have been designed and tested in ansys using the most sophisticated computers. This I can do. What I can't figure out, is the best way to make a prototype to test the wings before making molds.

I would appreciate any help and advise from the community!

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Re: Best way to make a prototype

Postby lightandfrost » Tue May 29, 2018 8:25 am

Light and Frost is not sure how you are making these components however size usually equates to time necessary to complete and to cost.

You are faced with two major questions which can really only be answered by time on the components.

1. Are the materials chosen and construction techniques structural sound.

2. Is the design adequate.

Suggest you make only a 75cm mast first and pick your freeride wing as the first test wing. Make the wing, take it out and tune the hydrofoil components and then ride for a while to see if your component mix stays structurally functional. Going thru these steps will help you improve your construction techniques. Time to completion of the next larger component will improve. These components are all connected and these connection systems need to be tested in real time.

For example when we first made masts we made complicated internal wood structures and wrapped the glass around the mast. Soon we found that a simple flat piece of plywood worked fine and wrapping the glass around the wood was unnecessary as was the use of carbon fiber. We can now bang a mast out in a few days as most of the time is epoxy cure time.

Our mast to fuselage connection method was failing because the bolts were being damaged by the fuselage and in turn damaging the bronze connectors.

In closing keep your eyes out for alternative approaches. For example we found a west system epoxy article years ago where they were stripping red wood speed boats down to bare wood and then just spraying epoxy directly on the wood then sanding. We immediately stopped using fiberglass on twintips. We just made the deck of thin plywood and applied epoxy directly to the wood. We still use this technique on our hydrofoil wings today in that we only glass the bottom of the wing for stiffness.

Have Fun

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downunder
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Re: Best way to make a prototype

Postby downunder » Tue May 29, 2018 3:03 pm

^are you talking in 3rd person to yourself? ;)

Ummm, OP, that question is a Holly Grail, let us know when u find it.

It is not like can't be done it is more how much is it...

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Re: Best way to make a prototype

Postby airsail » Tue May 29, 2018 8:47 pm

I've built a couple of carbon home builds and seen several more built in the local area, the funny thing is that they all worked to some extent. Some broke, some were unstable, most were fairly ugly, but they all flew and were usable.
So whatever you design will work, it is the fine details such as connection stiffness which will either make an ok foil into a great foil. Any flex in the connections or flex in the mast make for a crap ride.

Mine were hand shaped, glassed in carbon and after trial and error all connections were glued and glassed together rigidly except for the rear stab. Maybe you could CNC wood to maintain shape, glass in S glass or carbon then rigidly assemble. This would prove your design prior to building moulds. Won't be the best ride but a starting point.

Also have an experienced foiler available for testing, a newb foiler has no idea what works or doesn't. That was my fail, hard to learn on something you don't know whether it works or not.

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downunder
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Re: Best way to make a prototype

Postby downunder » Wed May 30, 2018 2:47 am

You're missing the point,

the OP designed and proved everything in ansys. That means the models should be made as much as possible to the original. And this is not for DIY garage project but for the CNC as I understand.

OP, you can send your models to China and they will cut it for you...Not sure if you would like that, but it an option.

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Re: Best way to make a prototype

Postby airsail » Wed May 30, 2018 4:04 am

Sorry, my error. Obviously at a stage where it will start consuming a large amount of cash.

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Re: Best way to make a prototype

Postby plummet » Wed May 30, 2018 8:57 am

Kitemanmuc wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:42 am
So i am deep down the rabbit hole, designing a modular hydrofoil. I have a fuselage prototype out of aluminum and I have the designs for 3 masts, 75cm, 95cm, 105cm, 3 wings, SUP, freeride, race and 2 stabilizer, race and freeride. All have been designed and tested in ansys using the most sophisticated computers. This I can do. What I can't figure out, is the best way to make a prototype to test the wings before making molds.

I would appreciate any help and advise from the community!
3d print your designs in sections.
Glue them together.
Take a basic mould from them. Make it out of whatever materials you have lying around and layup as designed. Test. The mould only needs to last once!

Or

3d print your parts undersize to account for carbon layers. manual vac bag lay up and form afterward.

Or

Find a woodworking place that may be able to cnc your mould from mdf. Get it cnc'd. Work it. Lay it up. test it out.

Or

cut/print template and cross sectional wing profiles. Manually form your components from foam and or ply. Lay up and test.

Or

just go for it and build your mould and test.

And/or

Share your concept design here omit, critical dimensions if worried about your ip. Get feed back, make changes before prototyping.

Kitemanmuc
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Re: Best way to make a prototype

Postby Kitemanmuc » Thu May 31, 2018 1:01 am

plummet wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 8:57 am
Kitemanmuc wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:42 am
So i am deep down the rabbit hole, designing a modular hydrofoil. I have a fuselage prototype out of aluminum and I have the designs for 3 masts, 75cm, 95cm, 105cm, 3 wings, SUP, freeride, race and 2 stabilizer, race and freeride. All have been designed and tested in ansys using the most sophisticated computers. This I can do. What I can't figure out, is the best way to make a prototype to test the wings before making molds.

I would appreciate any help and advise from the community!
3d print your designs in sections.
Glue them together.
Take a basic mould from them. Make it out of whatever materials you have lying around and layup as designed. Test. The mould only needs to last once!

Or

3d print your parts undersize to account for carbon layers. manual vac bag lay up and form afterward.

Or

Find a woodworking place that may be able to cnc your mould from mdf. Get it cnc'd. Work it. Lay it up. test it out.

Or

cut/print template and cross sectional wing profiles. Manually form your components from foam and or ply. Lay up and test.

Or

just go for it and build your mould and test.

And/or

Share your concept design here omit, critical dimensions if worried about your ip. Get feed back, make changes before prototyping.
alrighty!!
f5179110-ca4f-44eb-bdfd-806431b334d9.jpg
e95b412a-89ca-412d-a2b5-822d39fe1611.jpg
b11bd70b-6cbe-44c8-885e-27ca05dd34e4.jpg

plummet
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Re: Best way to make a prototype

Postby plummet » Thu May 31, 2018 6:52 am

Looks reasonably in line with current designs.

My thoughts:-

* Rear wing on the top fuse. That means the bolts don't take all the load.
* Ensure an easily adjustable rear wing aoa.
* 8mm hardware is robust.
* Rear stable about 2/3 surface area as front wing.
* Do you have winglets on the rear stab? I cant tell.
If not then use a TT fin under the stab as a vertical stabilizer.
* Fuse could be a bit long. That will increase stability which will be good for learning but will sacrifice maneuverability.
* Perhaps a bolt on top plate so you don't have to make multiple plates

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downunder
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Re: Best way to make a prototype

Postby downunder » Thu May 31, 2018 7:22 am

"* Rear wing on the top fuse. That means the bolts don't take all the load. "

- which load? The stab bolts are definitely not taking the longitudinal load but a side one.

* Ensure an easily adjustable rear wing aoa.

- umm why? Without knowing the front wing specs it can be even near 0 degrees...

* 8mm hardware is robust.

- 6mm is not near enough.

* Rear stable about 2/3 surface area as front wing.

- Umm, Levitaz is not 2/3, or any race by that matter.

* Fuse could be a bit long.

- that's why there might be more holes to move a wing...

C'mon Plummet, you riding a DIY board, I recon all knowledge you've got is from reading and not seeing it in person?

Anyways, not to bash you, just pointing to leave to more Authoritative guys on the topic to answer. Which I'm not. But nice try tho...


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