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 Post subject: Foil Evolution
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:30 pm 
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Location: drtuba.eu, kite-stuff.org, eXtremist.si, kajtar.si
Hi,

been watching foil designs for a while and it seems to me that designs are in stagnation/stucked... I was actually looking for a kite to play good on land/snow... well and anybody just seems to pour some oil to their "old" designs, new graphics, little colour updates and that's it... nothing more.

"Oh our new kite is sooo better than our last year model, etc etc..." I read on pages... BUT as I see it they might be tuned here and there, a bit slower here, a bit faster there, BUT - there's nothing really new...

To be honest, there are some exceptions on some segments (like lighter materials) but I was not looking for that...

And, to be honest #2, ILEs are getting more useful in the segment where foils had many advantages - on snow and land. Performance and safety in my mind. The only thing I see now that they're still better in packing smaller and they have better reverse landing (meaning no power - ILE's can be reverse landed easily but with some small amount of power). But the borders are blurred, ILE's are coming ahead - despite foil's superior aerodynamics...

Maybe just an idea for a small foil evolution, just like ILE market is going - why not to make a foil around delta design? I believe even foils would get something good of it... That has been proven in some similar models... there are sure many stuff involved in design and we could talk about it for a long time...

For illustration I'm attaching one quick pic...

This thread is meant for positive comments, not bashing/arguing etc...

Gigi;)
:bye:


Attachments:
File comment: Gigi's Delta Foil
Gigi_DeltaFoil.jpg
Gigi_DeltaFoil.jpg [ 196.22 KIB | Viewed 1427 times ]
{ SHARE_ON_FACEBOOK } { SHARE_ON_TWITTER } { SHARE_ON_ORKUT } { SHARE_ON_DIGG } { SHARE_ON_MYSPACE } { SHARE_ON_DELICIOUS }
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 Post subject: Re: Foil Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:10 pm 
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open cell foils dont improve much (despite what the marketing says)
ozone put some "closed cell" in their land kite for better rigidity and may be some fiber tube (dunno if it went to serial production)

a canadian brand made a foil that can change projected area on its open cell foil, flysurfer has the same thing on their closed cell kites. can lose up to 20% of surface, increasing the range and depower.

the only kites more delta/hybrid are the peter lynn kites, pretty much C-shape kites. all the rest are bow styles.

on your picture, i feel like looking at flysurfer kites when depowered ( psycho4 and speed3). turning speed is increased, surface is reduced


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 Post subject: Re: Foil Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:02 pm 
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I think its a great idea and definitely worth developing.

--
Gunnar


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 Post subject: Re: Foil Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Yes, dynamic shape (arc) change is mainly, due to inflatable, rigid shape, virtually impossible on ILE's. I won't say that it could not be done, actually I've tried that (I must admit that unintentionally) but all I've got from this was unpredictable kite.

PL kites are not deltas, maybe you would be able to compare old C-Quads to delta shape.

This design is not like any design from FS, which have much greater AR, it is more/less pure delta with PA of 76%.

Again, pic is meant for illustration purposes only since it has 3D effect applied and does not show exact design.

May I say that I'm kite designer, working mainly on ILE's. I currently do not have the interest of working on foils, but I can provide some ideas to those who are interested in them...

I'd still like to hear some good thoughts on foil evolution... ;)

Gigi;)
:bye:

voodoospirit wrote:
a canadian brand made a foil that can change projected area on its open cell foil, flysurfer has the same thing on their closed cell kites. can lose up to 20% of surface, increasing the range and depower.

the only kites more delta/hybrid are the peter lynn kites, pretty much C-shape kites. all the rest are bow styles.

on your picture, i feel like looking at flysurfer kites when depowered ( psycho4 and speed3). turning speed is increased, surface is reduced


Attachments:
File comment: Gigi's Delta Foil
Gigi_DeltaFoil_1.jpg
Gigi_DeltaFoil_1.jpg [ 82.15 KIB | Viewed 1308 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Foil Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:32 pm 
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Not to get off track, but i've been toying this idea in my head. What if you could build something that could incorporate both technologies.

Like a foil with only a inflated leading edge just to keep it open so it doesn't flop, collapse, bowtie. I guess the problem would be keeping seams to a minumum. like a inflated edge with cell openings to fill the canopy just to maintain shape and reduce pump time plus if it failed the cells could still stay open and fly near the same.

I think most of the designs are based around the paragliding's tried true and tested reliabilty. Like to see some new designs too.

Just a thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:15 pm 
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Image

Been playing with a delta arc for a long time :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Foil Evolution
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:26 am 
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I thought the advantage of going to the hassle of bridling a foil was to make as much use of the area of the sail to develop power?


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 Post subject: Re: Foil Evolution
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:07 pm 
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I heard that the new FS Unity will incorporate a delta shape, can anyone confirm?

I agree that continued evolutionary steps are needed with foils, particularly with the small kites (light wind seems to be the focus for now). However, I have been impressed with the efforts of FS lately with the "triple depower" system and the to-be-revealed features of the Unity.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:27 am 
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:thumb:


Last edited by chastaman on Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Foil Evolution
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:19 am 
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I've heard that too AFTER I've shown my design to FS...

chastaman - to which of us was your Q meant?

Life_Is_Awesome wrote:
I heard that the new FS Unity will incorporate a delta shape, can anyone confirm?


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