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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:26 pm 
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I have not tried a closed cell in a long time. I used to have a flysurfer titan that I loved! I always thought it was way ahead of its time.


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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Kamikuza wrote:
Michigan isn't in the US then? Nuts, my geography is really bad.


Yup riding on ice during a year when the location had to be changed becuase of a crappy winter at a contest that didn't attract many US riders seems like the right time to measure up what kite works best, for all around riding. I can go stupid fast on 4line handle foil kites, but I would not go free ride on one?

Just like you using others experence on a forum as though it is your own is propabaly the right call also. Where you at the WISSA event? Did you see first hand the conditions there. Do you think a bunch of people racing around on a flat icey lake is how all snow and land kiting should be judged or desighned around???

How about you fly what ever kite you would like. And then share Your expereances on the forum.

I heard from a guy.. or my friends said just doesn't cut it.

I knew as soon as I responded to your comment it would not go well becuase you have a personal mission to always be right on this forum.

I would really love to see some video, some results, some credentals that would back up your know it all internet persona with some credability?

As always I share my opinion based on my experence. I am not saying I am right or wrong, or this prodect is best or better, just this is what I think or experenced...

BB


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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:30 pm 
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HAMLINDP wrote:
waynepjh wrote:
I am an expert kiter and Ozone team rider. I have kited around 200 days a year for over 10 years. My kite was an 2011 ozone foil frenzy. I love foil kites dont get me wrong but there is no way they are as stable as a water kite. There is a time and place for each type of kite and I will always have both!


The foils I'm talking about are closed cells, but I agree swirling winds suck for any kite!

Have you tried closed cellers (water kites)?

Just wondering (I'm not trying to sound pissy).


I recently was out with a new kiter, He can stay up wind jump little airs and is totally safe and needs no help to go kiting anymore.

We were out on a day when the wind was 15 gusting to 35 mph. This kiter doesn't have a little kite so I lent him a flysurfer 8m that I keep around to lend out to people who could use a smaller kite, It was a gift from a flysurfer friend that I have had for a couple years.

When I put him out on the flysurfer he was scared, had a very hard time controling the kite, it often would fold and fall only to power up and yard him he tried for 15 minutes to kite, He came in scared and panicing, while trying to land he lost control of the kite when it lulled then gusted the gust hit ripping the kite out of the guy landing him hands, the super thin trailing edge bridle then cut the guys finger up very deeply as the kite powered up from a folded position and snaged it as it flew away.

I then lent him my rebel 8m and he went out in the same wind and kited for a couple hours and had a great time. I flew 10m vegas on short lines and was also very powered but comfortable. ( I would have flown 8 but I lent it out)

I like closed cell foils, I like open cell foils, I like Pump up kites.I use foil kites when I buggy on land that would destroy a pump up kite. But I think most foil kites have traights that need practice and experence to enjoy, I think my short story about my friend proves this idea.

Pump up kites hold there shape and can not load and unload from collapsing.

BB


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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Billy B. wrote:

I knew as soon as I responded to your comment it would not go well becuase you have a personal mission to always be right on this forum.


BB



Billy Please don't feed the trolls :D

Hope to ride with you again soon. :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:28 am 
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:rolleyes: Come on Billy you can't have it both ways - you can't veto other people's or website's reports then insist that you can post your own experiences and have them taken as unquestioned facts. Otherwise, there's no point in posting things like magazine reviews, links to data etc at all.
And there IS more than one pro (American pro!) using foils, no matter how you try to marginalize the events... not that it proves anything about the kites! (Let the results speak for themselves.)

Billy B. wrote:
As always I share my opinion based on my experence. I am not saying I am right or wrong, or this prodect is best or better, just this is what I think or experenced...

Given your experience with foils AND tubes, it tends to lend more weight your replies than say... Pumpies :lol:

Billy B. wrote:
I would really love to see some video, some results, some credentals that would back up your know it all internet persona with some credability?

I'm curious--just how much skill with a kite & board you need before you're allowed to form your own opinions based on your own experiences and participate in this forum? Is there like a test you have to pass?

Billy B. wrote:
Pump up kites hold their shape and can not load and unload from collapsing.

Really? Cos I had one do it this week... and I've seen many of a similar design (low-medium AR delta thingy) collapse at the edge of the window, tumbleweed into the powerzone and open again fully powered - whee!
I thought it was that they hadn't pumped their kites up enough that caused the collapse... but when it did it to me after I'd pumped it up properly... well!

Of course, you can dismiss all that because I'm not a expert kiter and can't do F-16 back-mobe strudel pirouette and don't fly the cool kites or ride the cool boards since 1972...


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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:05 am 
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waynepjh wrote:
I have tried to fly foils in some pretty gusty wind they collapse and tangle. In the same wind my friend was flying a tube kite with no problems. I had to walk back to the car. Foils can't handle gusty swirly wind. There is no way a foil kite can be as stable as a tube kite. I use both types of kites and they each have there time and place.

Surely you haven't tried the latest generation of foils.
There is no way a tube kite is as stable as a modern foil.

http://www.nautikites.net/blog/index.php?entry=entry110917-153717

Quote a pro LEI rider reviewing Flysurfer kites (first of 3 reviews in the same blog):
Quote:
The next day I got to take out the 10m Speed2 in some 15 to gusting over 25knots (briefly over 30K) stormy, choppy/wavy shifty conditions, straight after riding my 10m Torch and the best words to describe it are probably stable, powerful, easy and really forgiving in the gust’s. Again it took a few moments to get used to the differences. But once you do, it will make your inflatable seem more like a toy than a sophisticated flying ‘wing’. Again crashing, re launching, crashing, re launching, crashing with no problems....
The following day we got the really stormy conditions, gusting to over 30 knots and big messy waves. First my 7m Torch then time for the 6m and 8m Phycho4’s. Wow, de-power, big boosting, fast, safe and easy . It wasn’t the day for unhooking but it just made it a fun day. I put it down a few times when fronts would come through and it would get wet and windy. But after every front I launched myself, easily.
On both the Speed3’s and the Phycho4’s I was really impressed how the kites would never collapse or do anything funny whatsoever, even when they are looped. I mean paragliders do loops on their foils and trust their lives to it. You also so don’t need to work the kite as much once you get going
.


When you guys relate a comparing kite experience, please be more specific about what you are talking about.
[quote Billie]This kiter doesn't have a little kite so I lent him a flysurfer 8m that I keep around to lend out to people who could use a smaller kite, It was a gift from a flysurfer friend that I have had for a couple years.[/quote]
What kite was Billie referring to? The Psycho1, for example is considered by those who went through the whole evolution of FS kites as the bitchiest of all kites. The most exciting too, for that matter.
The opinion people have today relies too much of hear-says, true of false, relating to early kites.
I'd like to know, amongst those who are commenting here the stability of foils in gusty conditions, how many have tried a Psycho4 6 or 8, or a small Unity?
Admittedly, foils need more precise tuning to have them fly properly. Even a friend doesn't give away a properly tuned FS, Billie!


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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:12 am 
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waynepjh wrote:
I have tried to fly foils in some pretty gusty wind they collapse and tangle. In the same wind my friend was flying a tube kite with no problems. I had to walk back to the car. Foils can't handle gusty swirly wind. There is no way a foil kite can be as stable as a tube kite. I use both types of kites and they each have there time and place.

quote from alexrider
"Surely you haven't tried the latest generation of foils.
There is no way a tube kite is as stable as a modern foil."

I have tried and own the latest generation foils. I am speaking from personal experience not here say. The specific experience I was talking about was not wind that was just gusty it was swirling around too. And my foil kite was doing crazy things. My friend on the waterkite was able to keep it flying and get around when my kite was practically going from overpowered to flying into me. Conditions I wouldn't recommend anybody go out in. @ alexrider what do you think can handle turbulence better a paraglider or a hanglider? Do you think that the frame of a water kite helps it keep flying through turbulence? I know that foils can handle big gusts its the turbulence I'm referring to. Believe me I love foils Almost as much as my blimps!


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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:28 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
:
And there IS more than one pro (American pro!) using foils, no matter how you try to marginalize the events... not that it proves anything about the kites!
Quote:


On snow.....Ok name them. :jump:

Hi Wanye, this place is funny, I hope you guys get it this weekend...send it!


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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:35 am 
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waynepjh wrote:
waynepjh wrote:
I have tried to fly foils in some pretty gusty wind they collapse and tangle. In the same wind my friend was flying a tube kite with no problems. I had to walk back to the car. Foils can't handle gusty swirly wind. There is no way a foil kite can be as stable as a tube kite. I use both types of kites and they each have there time and place.

quote from alexrider
"Surely you haven't tried the latest generation of foils.
There is no way a tube kite is as stable as a modern foil."

I have tried and own the latest generation foils. I am speaking from personal experience not here say. The specific experience I was talking about was not wind that was just gusty it was swirling around too. And my foil kite was doing crazy things. My friend on the waterkite was able to keep it flying and get around when my kite was practically going from overpowered to flying into me. Conditions I wouldn't recommend anybody go out in. @ alexrider what do you think can handle turbulence better a paraglider or a hanglider? Do you think that the frame of a water kite helps it keep flying through turbulence? I know that foils can handle big gusts its the turbulence I'm referring to. Believe me I love foils Almost as much as my blimps!

Great you appreciate the qualities of both kinds!
I am a hang-glider (ex-pro) and paraglider pilot. I way prefer hang-gliders to paragliders. and I do agree with you they handle turbulence better (and they go places!). One forgotten reason is they have nearly twice as high wing loading.
However for kiting my choice goes to foils. Tubes, although they do keep their shapes are just likely as foils to collapse (tuck) when the wind incidence goes negative. I've never had to sit on the beach and watch tubies fool around because my foils wouldn't handle it. Perhaps the experience one has with a particular type of kite plays a bigger role than the type itself. Perhaps we don't make the same distinction between big gusts and turbulence. Perhaps I've never experienced the sort turbulent conditions you or other have.
Personally I find that foils are much less all-on-or-all-off than the tubes I have flown in really gusty conditions. Also I like the behaviour of Sp3s far better when the lines go slack due to drop of apparent wind e.g whilst riding a wave downwind; they just sit nicely where you want them to be when the winds pick up again.
What high aspect ratio foils won't do however is turn on a dime like only some tubes can.
That's why, but for different reasons, love some LEI (mostly those designed for waves) almost as much as my blimps!


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 Post subject: Re: Inflatables are Superior to Ram Airs on Snow/Land
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:55 am 
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alexrider wrote:
What kite was Billie referring to? The Psycho1, for example is considered by those who went through the whole evolution of FS kites as the bitchiest of all kites. The most exciting too, for that matter.
The opinion people have today relies too much of hear-says, true of false, the stability of foils
Admittedly, foils need more precise tuning to have them fly properly. Even a friend doesn't give away a properly tuned FS, Billie!


There is sponsored kiter (Wayne) posting their personal ideas about the kites we are talking about and you are quoting articles from other pros???? We get it you like flysurfers, How is it hearsay if Wayne and I have flown the current crop of foil kites from a couple of makers and make comments based on our experances? I personally prefer something else. The kite I put my buddy on was a 2008 pulse 2 I have tried to sell it for years and no one locally wants to buy it, I was letting my friend try it in hopes of selling it... I personally prefer a different kite so I will loan out my foil all day.

I fully support Waynes hang glider vs paraglider statement. Rigid air frame vs soft foil filled with air that flexes and moves? One is stiffer and keeps it shape these are the rules of physics not hear say or quotes from a second source....

Enjoy the kites you like. Here in the mountain air I like pump up stuff.


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