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Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

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waynepjh
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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby waynepjh » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:49 pm

On light wind days with lulls and swirly wind tube kites will fly circles around foils. What happens when you set your foil down in a lull? Land your tube kite on the struts and you are ready to go in the first little puff. Pull to soon on a foil and it's a tangled mess. I love foils in good wind! For me the ultimate light wind Snowkite is the ozone edge 15 meter. I have been playing with the new frenzy and summit kites and they are amazing. Can't wait for the snow!

https://vimeo.com/m/92154883

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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby fernmanus » Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:32 am

The best kites for the backcountry if you are self-supported using a skin track to climb rather than a snow machine are open-cell or single-skin kites. The kite you will want to check out is the new 12m Flysurfer Peak. It should offer the ultimate light wind performance in a light weight kite. I have a 9m Peak and I can tell you that it is an awesome kite for backcountry touring. I can't wait for the 12. There are light days when the 9 was just not enough. The Peaks pack up super small and come with a lightweight bar. They are not any good for jumping or gliding. They are specifically designed for backcountry touring. They do happen to be great for new kiters as well because they fly in very little wind.

I also own a Chrono 18m and 21m Speed 4. They are awesome kites, but I would not want to lug them up a skin track. I use them when I can kite from my truck at the side of the road. They both are extremely capable kites for jumping and gliding. The Speed has more range and better gust management The Chrono is more responsive and precise.

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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby mr moon » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:20 pm

fernmanus wrote:The best kites for the backcountry if you are self-supported using a skin track to climb rather than a snow machine are open-cell or single-skin kites. The kite you will want to check out is the new 12m Flysurfer Peak. It should offer the ultimate light wind performance in a light weight kite. I have a 9m Peak and I can tell you that it is an awesome kite for backcountry touring. I can't wait for the 12. There are light days when the 9 was just not enough. The Peaks pack up super small and come with a lightweight bar. They are not any good for jumping or gliding. They are specifically designed for backcountry touring. They do happen to be great for new kiters as well because they fly in very little wind.

I also own a Chrono 18m and 21m Speed 4. They are awesome kites, but I would not want to lug them up a skin track. I use them when I can kite from my truck at the side of the road. They both are extremely capable kites for jumping and gliding. The Speed has more range and better gust management The Chrono is more responsive and precise.
Yes the big beasts are better off when setting off on the spot..

The Peak looks so interesting.. a 12 would be ideal. Is it going to be released??

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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby airsurfer » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:30 pm

+1 for Flysurfer Peak I have 9M and the kite is and will be with me anywhere I go it's so user friendly .... can't wait for the 12M. I got it for landboarding its not a big jumper unless very powered

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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:11 pm

Fernmanus is absolutely right. In regards to all the kites he just mentioned I would say.

We're a Flysurfer dealer here in New England, NE United States and a 12m Peak would be the kite I eluded to earlier in this thread. We have not received official word of the release of the 12m Peak (or other sizes) and am not allowed to discuss new models without permission from Flysurfer. Right NOW I cannot confirm or deny that they exist. :wink: Maybe when I check my email there will be some updated news. :D

But a Peak 12m (if it exists) is exactly the kite I would choose. The Peak is built specifically for alpine kite touring and the type of duty you have described. We have not had any flying time on a 12m Peak but based on the performance of the 6m and 9m I can only assume that the 12m would be fill your light wind ascending requirements as well as general light wind conditions.

Frankly the 9m equipped with 5m line extensions, would almost do the job but my guess is the 12m would be a better bet. Plenty of grunt for the lighter winds you would encounter down low but able to depower enough in the event of higher winds as you climb. With the smaller sizes we have found a simple 3" pigtail off with knots every 20mm on the center leader allows for even better low end if needed. The 9m Peak, in the hands of a good rider, can go head to head with the 15m Speed using the pigtail.

When we do big tours (50-100miles) the winds can vary hugely from where we launch to were we end up. We don't often use them for ascending here as most of our mountains are covered in trees, but we do a lot of long distance lake riding and exploring. The Peak has been a game changer for our uses.

The 6m can fit in an average Camelbak. I put the 9m, RTF in a Columbia Mobex pack and the whole thing, kite, bar and lines, 5m line extensions and leash in the pack weighed 6.6lbs (see pic) This was weighed on a UPS shipping scale. The bottle on the left is approximately 15cm tall for reference. I want to do a long high speed tour that would cover several lakes and require skinning across densely wooded areas in between. Areas that a bigger pack would be an issue both due to weight and bulk. Skins would be in the pack when flying and wing in pack when skinning so the limited space would not be an issue for short term high speed trips. We've sold a few of the FS Peak harness packs but most of our customers opt for a standalone harness, usually the Ozone SB, and then any pack that suits their demands.

We've had the 6m in winds over 40kts and riding at speeds of nearly 70mph and been very comfortable but been able to ride in conditions light enough where a 12m Speed would struggle to pull enough. Extremely broad spectrum on these kites.

All the Peaks, in experienced hands, cover about the same wind range as 2, traditional open cell foils. The 6m for example can pull like a 9-10m depower foil but depowers down to nearly a 3m. I can only assume further sizes can do the same. For some of our students, couples, that have purchased the Peaks have purchased 2 of 1 size as opposed to years past where they would purchase 2 sizes (his and hers) due to the differences in weight. It is a very different kite.

Follow this link to see how quickly it packs down and sets up.

http://youtu.be/0oc-Fg59IfI?list=UU8RK0 ... dDCzEWfZNw
Attachments
Peak9mColumbia.jpg
9m Peak RTF and pack. 6.6 lbs.

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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby waynepjh » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:20 pm

fernmanus wrote:The best kites for the backcountry if you are self-supported using a skin track to climb rather than a snow machine are open-cell or single-skin kites. The kite you will want to check out is the new 12m Flysurfer Peak. It should offer the ultimate light wind performance in a light weight kite. I have a 9m Peak and I can tell you that it is an awesome kite for backcountry touring. I can't wait for the 12. There are light days when the 9 was just not enough. The Peaks pack up super small and come with a lightweight bar. They are not any good for jumping or gliding. They are specifically designed for backcountry touring. They do happen to be great for new kiters as well because they fly in very little wind.

I also own a Chrono 18m and 21m Speed 4. They are awesome kites, but I would not want to lug them up a skin track. I use them when I can kite from my truck at the side of the road. They both are extremely capable kites for jumping and gliding. The Speed has more range and better gust management The Chrono is more responsive and precise.
So when you are backcountry touring you don't want to jump or glide?
I've spent hours on long kite tours waiting for others on foils that could not get through lulls or swirly wind. When you put in great effort to get to that epic spot do you want to be riding a kite that is holding you back? On long trips I pack a small foil and a 13meter tube kite. In one day I climbed over 40,000 feet on a tube kite. People on foil were trying to follow me but I was way ahead of them. I'm not an armchair mountaineer ,talking from experience in the mountains.
I have ordered a chrono and have high expectations on it's being my light wind backcountry kite. I will let you know how it goes.

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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby mr moon » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:01 pm

waynepjh wrote:
fernmanus wrote:The best kites for the backcountry if you are self-supported using a skin track to climb rather than a snow machine are open-cell or single-skin kites. The kite you will want to check out is the new 12m Flysurfer Peak. It should offer the ultimate light wind performance in a light weight kite. I have a 9m Peak and I can tell you that it is an awesome kite for backcountry touring. I can't wait for the 12. There are light days when the 9 was just not enough. The Peaks pack up super small and come with a lightweight bar. They are not any good for jumping or gliding. They are specifically designed for backcountry touring. They do happen to be great for new kiters as well because they fly in very little wind.

I also own a Chrono 18m and 21m Speed 4. They are awesome kites, but I would not want to lug them up a skin track. I use them when I can kite from my truck at the side of the road. They both are extremely capable kites for jumping and gliding. The Speed has more range and better gust management The Chrono is more responsive and precise.
So when you are backcountry touring you don't want to jump or glide?
I've spent hours on long kite tours waiting for others on foils that could not get through lulls or swirly wind. When you put in great effort to get to that epic spot do you want to be riding a kite that is holding you back? On long trips I pack a small foil and a 13meter tube kite. In one day I climbed over 40,000 feet on a tube kite. People on foil were trying to follow me but I was way ahead of them. I'm not an armchair mountaineer ,talking from experience in the mountains.
I have ordered a chrono and have high expectations on it's being my light wind backcountry kite. I will let you know how it goes.
I'd feel a lot more comfortable on a foil when I take off for mountain trips.. instant depower, no need of a pump, lightweight when packed, easy take off and landings etc..

You can jump and glide very well with some tubes (my 12m Rebel for example :wink: ) but I haven't seen around any inflatable paraglider yet so I don't buy your theory. Inflatable are way too heavy to be defined as flying / gliding machines..

You can even get through lulls easier on a LEI but rider's ability also need some consideration. Kiting on the mountains is like a 3D kiting compared to the sea where you take off and stay on a flat surface (more like a 2D). Backcountry touring it's all about the ability of manage slopes up and down, change directions to follow a route, climb up somewhere regardless ideal wind direction, gust and lulls management among the rest…

One point in favour of inflatables might be the higher AR in some big sizes which makes them easier to loop compared to a wide low AR foil, hence better climbers.

I might go for the Lotus 18m 8)

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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:46 pm

This is exactly the thing about about snowkiting that I love. The diversity. Its also what makes choosing a kite so problematic sometimes.

Until the Peak most of us here were flying Arcs. Started on Frenzies and had fun but discovered arcs and went to them for gust handling ability. Everyone does what works best for their environment and rides their environment as it allows. I watch video of the Jackson Hole riders and enjoy them but can't really grasp the gliding thing as here leaving the ice in our gusty can have dire consequences. Very few of us jump and those that do learned on water first.

So we do what we can with what we have. Hard ice and gusty wind = long distance and high speeds. Or riding up rivers and cuts narrower than a line length.

One of our locals just moved to Driggs ID. I'm looking forward to seeing how he adapts to riding out there. He's a paraglider pilot also so I suspect he be gliding off stuff like others in the area.

We never see LEIs here. Not unless a random water rider shows up and they usually bag it fairly soon once they get a taste of the gust factor or gets tired of trying to ride a board on our usually boney surface conditions. My knee jerk response to Wayne's assessment of foils is that they people who he mentions probably just aren't very experienced foil riders. But then I guess you could use the same argument in my assessment on LEIs. :D

The reality the kiter makes the kite. A good kiter will make a kite do what he/she needs it to do regardless of what it is made for or supposed to be able to do.

This said I'm with Mr. Moon on the whole gliding with the LEI thing, or on kites in general. Anything not rated for it. But those guys in Jackson seem to be doing it without issues and have been for some time now. If I lived out there I'd probably have a different opinion. Looks crazy fun.

Either way snowkiting is amazingly diverse, more so than any other kite sport segment, and all of it is pretty damn awesome.

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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby fernmanus » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:19 am

Wayne,

There are many ways to approach the backcountry. If I am on a skin track, my kite of choice is the FS Peak because I want to keep weight to a minimum. If I have the luxury of a snow machine or snowcat then sure I would use a full-featured LEI or Foil.

I use the FS Peak for short alpine tours. I pull it out when I get above the tree line and use the kite to reach the ridge line, kite around a bit, then pack it up and ski down. These are areas that not necessarily wide open and great for gliding.

Other times, I use a kite from the road and tour for miles. On those days I use a big foil or tube.

Hope to see you on the snow this winter.

Kenny

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Re: Light wind snowkite Ozone Chrono 18m vs FS Speed 3/4

Postby nate76 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:21 pm

Hardwater Kiter wrote:
I think the Matrixx 2 as well as the Speed 4 are better if you want a true light wind wing. I say this based on the performance of the Matrixx 1 mind you. We haven't gotten a Matrixx 2 in here yet. But the turn rate and depower on the Matrixx 1 was suitable for your application.

Last season we started using Flysurfer Peaks for this and haven't looked back.
For a backcountry kite it truly is the Dynafit system of snowkites.
I've had a chance to get a few of hours on the larger Matrixx II sizes. On the Spectrum of Speeds, Chronos, and Matrixx 2, the Matrixx 2 probably sits at the bottom in terms of pure performance, but on the top for stability. One of the design goals for this kite was to make it more stable and kind of a no-brainer to fly: I think they have succeeded in that. When in the air, it doesn't take a lot of thought - it just kind of likes to stay in the air.

One other benefit you might find for back country is that with the new light weight material, the pack size is incredibly small. The 18m Matrixx II packs up to the size of about my 12m Montana foil kite.

On the down side for back country, closed cell kites by nature stay more inflated when you backstall/land them, and you will find they produce more static pull on the ground when they are parked. In higher winds when you are trying to get the kite packed away on your own this can be an issue. I have not had a chance to try the 18m in higher winds yet, but I imagine I will have to use the safety flag-out to land it by myself in these conditions. This is a case where something like the Peak would have an advantage.

I recommend that if you have the chance, demo them both to see what works best for your situation!

Nate


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