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Snow/Water Foil Question...

forum for snow- and landkiters


Loon
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Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: Cass Lake, Michigan
Favorite Beaches: Icarai/Isle do Guajaru/Cumbuco Brazil, Los Barriles BCS
Style: All of it.
Gear: Waiman 7, 9, 12 and Epic Screamer 14

Epic Spartan 129, F-One Trax 134, Waiman Blunt 137 W
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Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby Loon » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:22 am

I've been kiteboarding for over 6 years now, almost always on water... some landboarding and snowkiting in the winter.

I'm interested in taking more advantage of the winter snow kite season but am finding that pumping up a kite in below freezing conditions sucks!

So my question is.. Do I go for a dedicated snow kite like the Ozone Frenzy or something that could be used on both water & land like the Crono? I've never flown a foil so does it really mske the kite experience that much better?

I live in Michigan where "gusty" is a way of life.

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Hardwater Kiter
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Local Beach: New England. So much better than moldy Old England.
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Gear: Foils and skis.
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Re: Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:50 am

Where we are its rare to see an LEI in the winter for exactly the reason you cited as well as some others. For ease of use a nice open cell foil like the Ozone Frenzy, Summit or HQ Montana 8 are hard to beat as well as the Flysurfer Peak. Set up and pack down of these kites is fast and easy once you get used to it.

For versatility a closed cell foil is a great option. The Chrono is an amazing kite but it demands a lot of attention compared to other foils that are more on the fun end of the spectrun amd less full on race and probably not the best option for a first foil. Something like an HQ Matrixx, Neo series, Flysurfer Speed, or Psycho 4 will be more user friendly as you learn the in's and out's of foils. A Peter Lynn Charger or Phantom 2 are great options and more LEI-like in design and handling and unmatched imo in gust handling. We fly on lakes surrounded by mountains and our common gust factor is usually 100%. The arcs are awesome in our conditions.

These are all great options for closed cells, depending on your needs or tastes, and all of which are water relaunchable.

For a lot of dedicated LEI riders many foils don't seem to perform as well as the kites they're used to. Foil riders say the same about LEIs. I think it has as much to do with what you're comfortable with as much if not more than the actual performance of the kite. I'm guilty of this myself sometimes. :wink: But kites are like cars. A jeep is better in the dirt, a F-1 is better on the pavement. Foils IMO are more jeep like :-)

Loon
Medium Poster
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:50 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: Cass Lake, Michigan
Favorite Beaches: Icarai/Isle do Guajaru/Cumbuco Brazil, Los Barriles BCS
Style: All of it.
Gear: Waiman 7, 9, 12 and Epic Screamer 14

Epic Spartan 129, F-One Trax 134, Waiman Blunt 137 W
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby Loon » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:02 pm

Thanks hard water kiter! Soundd like a dedicated foil snow kite is the way to go.

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Hawaiis
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Re: Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby Hawaiis » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:48 pm

I would avoid the HQ Matrixx. It tends to rabbit ear/wingtip collapse more than the Flysurfer.

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william_rx7
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Re: Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby william_rx7 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:35 pm

Had a set of Ozone Frenzies, now I just take the time to pump.

Much better pop, and more consistent ride with a LEI. Self launching / landing easier too.

In gusty conditions, especially on inland lakes in Michigan and Ontario, foil bow tying is a real possibility. After you're foil bow-ties, and you spend 20+ minutes post-holing to get it untangled, suddenly, 5 minutes of pumping isn't so bad.

To keep your winter set-up quick, consider leaving your lines attached. Get systematic about set-up & break-down and you can save 10+ minutes standing around freezing.

Have a great season.

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matthepp
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Re: Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby matthepp » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:01 am

I echo the above sentiments. I have 1 Frenzy that bust out when I have to (when it's below 0 Fahrenheit). Otherwise I'm dialed with lines on the tube kites. Way better performance in my opinion. I too would much rather pump than deal with bow ties. One pump helps of course...
Oh! Here's the biggest easiest piece if advice that I can offer: keep a second warm dry pair of gloves inside your jacket. This is way more important than kite model!

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Hardwater Kiter
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Local Beach: New England. So much better than moldy Old England.
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Gear: Foils and skis.
Brand Affiliation: www.hardwaterkiter.com Authorized retailers of Ozone, Flysurfer,HQ kites.
Location: North Conway NH. USA
Contact:

Re: Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:23 am

To each their own for sure but really the choice depends on your demands. And your success depends on your experience. For example, the fact that it took William RX7 20 minutes to resolve a bowtie in his Frenzy tells me the issue is more experience, less the kite. A bowtie can usually be managed with minimal effort from the bar without too much trouble. (as long as there's enough wind).

Don't take me wrong here, this isn't a dig. I personally feel out of my element when dealing with LEIs. I'm fine while it's in air, and like a monkey (you know what) a football on the ground. I can make it work but it's not intuitive and I honestly never put in the time to get it dialed since I only fly in winter and on mostly long distance. So foils are my tool of choice.

But even though I don't fly LEIs regularly I definitely appreciate what they do and the differences in performance. Both types are fun if you give them a chance.

Personally I enjoy the debate. Especially out in the field. LEIs generally have the advantage in turn rate etc. over most foils but foils are closing the gap. Kites like the Peter Lynn Charger 1 pretty much close it completely. Opinions vary considerably with regions and with users for sure. Most of the guys that I know locally that are pro-LEI (we see one or two a season) in the winter are LEI in the summer. The guys that are foil riders in the winter, are skiers. :wink:

Craz Z
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Re: Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby Craz Z » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:37 am

Loon wrote:I live in Michigan where "gusty" is a way of life.
If gusty is a way of life stay far away from the foils. They are ok for 5-10mph spreads but after that they are a trash bag prone to bowties and explosive relaunch.

Which I've seen every idea on the market to prevent a bowtie with nothing that works. A baby bowtie you can be beat on the ground with the bar or pump the bar and get them out, but if its a perfect center bowtie that is tied in a knot you will not get it out without a hike or a friendly partner.

not pumping cause its cold outside sounds like its time to head south for warm water and bikini babes.

Get a compressor I carried one around for years let the kite pump itself while I sat in the car warming up. Then I figured out that pumping the kite was a better way for warming up after the hour ride in the car to the kitespot.


Trees are another thing to consider if you put a foil in a tree good luck getting it out without taking the tree down. branches are like velcro to bridles. doesnt happen often but out here you cut through the trees to get to the next big powder stash.

foils used to be 50-70% on the snow around here. hardly ever see them anymore maybe 5-10% I think the performance difference and having one set of kites for year round kiting makes more sense for the majority.

but hey don't listen to anyone but yourself. Go try before you buy. Someone local problably has one and would be more then willing to let you have a spin.

Let It snow :thumb:

Loon
Medium Poster
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:50 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: Cass Lake, Michigan
Favorite Beaches: Icarai/Isle do Guajaru/Cumbuco Brazil, Los Barriles BCS
Style: All of it.
Gear: Waiman 7, 9, 12 and Epic Screamer 14

Epic Spartan 129, F-One Trax 134, Waiman Blunt 137 W
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby Loon » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:02 am

Thanks for all the advice guys! Still on the fence, maybe it's just the desire to try something new. Just wish the foils weren't so damn expensive! I understand why they are but still.. even the used ones are a small fortune.

Not many kite shops around where I live and even less that commit to the snow kiting season so not much chance of demo-ing anything.

And I hear you on the bugging out for warmer weather and I do but I have a feeling this winter season is gonna be a long one and I just can't take all the time off I'd need to satisfy the kite addiction! Board shorts over snowboard any day!!

Cheers guys and thanks again for the input!!

Dave_5280
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Re: Snow/Water Foil Question...

Postby Dave_5280 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:21 am

Anyone use an electric air pump in the winter?

When you think about multiple season use an LEI or closed cell foil are the most cost effective.


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