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Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

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Hardwater Kiter
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Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:04 pm

Week 5! Pretty interesting speeds this week. Those speedy guys in Quebec are still owning the top spots (Guy with 63.5mph and Marcel with 58.59 mph) but we have Ronny, a rider from Norway in the top 3 this week on a Peak 1 with 50mph!

And the speeds for everyone in the field have never been so close!!! 3 different ties for 3 of the positions. Some of them narrowly missing being 4 way ties.

Great work out there everyone!!! Keep those entries coming!

For full results....

http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/snowkite- ... -5-results

Kevin Brooker
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Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

Postby Kevin Brooker » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:18 pm

Thanks for hosting the GSR. Most likely I'll never take the top spot but it is fun submitting even a relatively slow speed just for S&Gs.

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Hardwater Kiter
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Re: Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:52 pm

Ahhhh Kevin, it's not all about being the fastest overall. It's about seeing how you do, and seeing how you progress. Sure theres some element of competition there but only as much as you want.

Fun fact. That '04 5m Frenzy is a fast kite. The 04-05s were rocket ships. If you want fast, take that thing out when it's nukin. But be aware that top hat safety is not going to kill the power as much as you'd like in 30kts.

And don't static fly it in 25. ;-)

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Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

Postby kitexpert » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:34 pm

One dislike is different units. Kite sizes in meters, wind knots, speed mph's... First two is ok, but mph is so american :roll:

It is interesting to compare wind speeds to kiter speeds. Some values are obviously wrong, and because kiter speed is from GPS, it is the wind speeds. I don't think it is possible to reach over 22kn speed in 4kn wind.

If correctly measured it would be nice to know how many times faster kiter can go than the wind speed. My own best results are about three times the wind speed. Perhaps on clear ice and very low winds a bit more. But then it is even more difficult to judge the wind speed precisely enough.

Thanks to HWK for this work. If I'll have good conditions and massive speeds I may participate some week :wink:

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Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:17 am

I see your point and it's one that's been discussed over there years. MPH value is chosen due in part to the majority of participants have been from the states. Also, for none participants (again in the states) it allows some ability to relate. Kites, regardless of geographic region are measured universally in meters. And wind speeds, given the relative diverse measurements available, most can relate to knots.
In light of your dissaproval about mph being "so American", I'm no more concerned about measurements in MPH than I am that the ranking is in English. Maybe we will change units. But for now, baby steps.

Agreed that it is difficult to quantify kite speed in relation to wind speed in light winds. But if you can more 12-15mph in wind so light you cannot feel it on your face or even get a reading on a meter then how many times the windspeed have you gone?

The entire concept of what is possible in light wind on a super low resistance surface has gone out the window the last couple of years with the advent of all these new super efficient race kites. The ability to build apparent wind in near nothing changes everything. I now ride and have great sessions on days that we used to think we're impossible to even fly a kite. 3x the windspeed is easy now. And if you have excellent light wind flying skills and the right kite, almost anything is possible it seems.

Riding ice is IMO the snowkite equivalent tinfoil boarding on water. 5 years ago, the speeds achieved in light winds on water today would have been considered impossible. The same technology benefits a rider on ice. Taking it a step further though, elements such as carve radius, snow/ice crystal structure, surface moisture, air/snow temp, base structure and wax selection all play a part. It's not as simple as windspeed, surface conditions and kite size. Just because you cannot achieve something does not mean it's unachievable.

As I said, the GSR isn't about simply being the fastest. It's a means to guage yourself have fun (or sometimes get frustrated) and just see how you can push your personal limits or see how you fair against others. It's also great to see where people are riding in other parts of the world. :thumb:

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Re: Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

Postby Kevin Brooker » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:52 pm

I am aware of the kite's safety system being less than optimal. This is the newest kite I have and the rest are fixed bridles which pull like crazy and can go fast but there are essentially no safety systems and power delivery is absolutely binary; they wallow in the air until the inflation pressure builds and then "POW" it is full on. Gusts rip me off my skis and applying the brakes pretty much kills the kite. Anything over 15kts. and I start getting a bit nervous.


The GSR data might be a good resource to try and figure out efficiency. There are too many variable with respect to snow conditions but ignoring this (big statistical ignore) there might be a way to make a few educated calculations. First, what is the efficiency? Speed per rider weight (kgs, )size of kit and wind speed for example. It seems most of the efficiency (rider speed:wind speed) is at the lower rider speeds based upon a quick look at the GSR.

Some of the hassles I have going fast (besides being scared) is just resisting the kite to transfer the energy into forward motion. Another factor where snow kites will run into more then foil kites on water is drag produced by the kite itself. and where the drag becomes greater then the lift produced. At snowkite speeds at the top of the GSR those riders are going twice the speed of the foil riders. With drag being the square of the speed a snowkite rider has a much different set of forces acting upon the kite and rider then a foil rider. Line drag becomes a huge limiter.

On skates or ice the drag from the skate/ski is almost zero so the drag is the rider and what is produced by the kite itself. It'd be fun to play with just to see where the best l/d for a kite is and develop a performance curve.

Or, stop worrying about it and just hang on and ride to see what you get.

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Re: Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:58 pm

What makes for fast speeds is a pretty elusive thing to nail down. "Efficiency" is going to rely heavily on the pilot's ability to drive the ski as much as to drive the kite. For example when riding hard glass. If you cannot drive the edge well enough to maintain ski trajectory, you can't maintain optimum performance from the kite. When it seems like some people seem to be able to achieve higher speeds than others, even when in similar winds, surface and gear, you can pretty much bet it comes down to how well they edge. How well they edge comes down to rider ability to drive the edge and having the right equipment.

Between the original Stormboarding Ranking and now the GSR we've been watching snowkiter speeds for a little over 10 years. And it is remarkable the wide scope of conditions that people manage to get the fastest speeds in. Personally, my fastest speeds have all been in fairly deep corn snow. And, 2 years ago we did side by side comparisons of speeds between a 9m Chrono 1 and 8m Ozone Access. There was surprisingly little difference in performance. So IMO efficiency is great for some things but it does not equate to good speed results in all conditions. IMO Grunt and ability to translate that grunt into forward motion is where the best speeds are found.

But you're right Kevin. At the end of the day we could drive ourselves mad worrying about all the details. Best bet is just go out, pin it and see what you can do while coming home in one piece. :-)

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Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

Postby kitexpert » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:27 pm

Well, I don't know how much it is changed... I've had over 6 AR foil kites over a decade ago and they were fast, but not very nice to use.

If you look at top speeds there isn't at all big difference between the wind speed and kiter speed. Not once 3x the wind speed if I remember correct. It must be understood that L/D is for the kiter/kite system and therefore it is much lower than what kite has. Drag increases to the square of the speed, but to keep L/D unaffected would mean L to increase as well. Unfortunately at higher speeds force to kiter becomes so big no one can handle it.

At low wind speeds people underestimate how strong it is and there can be (and usually is) a lot of wind gradient. Then forces are so small kiter can use it all, achieving max L/D.
Hardwater Kiter wrote:When it seems like some people seem to be able to achieve higher speeds than others, even when in similar winds, surface and gear, you can pretty much bet it comes down to how well they edge. How well they edge comes down to rider ability to drive the edge and having the right equipment.
Weight and strength helps here. It is almost impossile to compete against heavy rider, because the force (lift) he can take from the kite is so much bigger (proportional to weight or if heavy guy is stronger even more). On ice friction is not much different whether kiter is heavy or light weighted, and even more important air resistance is almost same for bigger or smaller guy. This is true if the wind is strong enough, which is achieved for most kiters relatively easily.

Making speed records is not for ladies or light weight guys :o
Hardwater Kiter wrote: And, 2 years ago we did side by side comparisons of speeds between a 9m Chrono 1 and 8m Ozone Access. There was surprisingly little difference in performance. So IMO efficiency is great for some things but it does not equate to good speed results in all conditions.
Something has limited the speeds achieved in that day, perhaps the wind itself? You can't benefit from higher lift if you are too weak to use it. Lower the wind speed the more superior high AR kite is, at high wind speeds the kiter and the surface are the most critical things.

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Re: Hardwater Kiting Global Speed Ranking '17 Week 5. Holy close speeds!

Postby kitejumping » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:55 am

On a snowboard the limiting factor is usually how choppy the conditions are, I think skis handle that a lot better. If it's perfectly smooth deep powder going above 35 or 40mph with a normal board you start to get speed wobble.


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