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Temperature and edging on ice.

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SaulOhio
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Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby SaulOhio » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:24 pm

I have come to realize that temperature plays a very large role in how well your ski or snowboard edge can get bite on the ice. A couple of weeks ago I was in Minnesota, and the high temperatures were in the low single digits. It was hard to get an ice screw into the ice, and it was hard to maintain an edge. Back home in Ohio, on a warm day, it was easy to hold an edge even on the hardest looking ice. I have been using modern race skis, which sometimes seem to hold an edge even with a diameter as low as 27. I was on 50's in Minnesota, but was having trouble. For the super cold conditions, I'm putting some really old, straight skis back into my quiver. And sharpening them up like crazy.

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edt
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Re: Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby edt » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:36 pm

yeah the ice was pretty soft yesterday. I like hard ice better to be honest, it's better for my iceboard. I made a new iceboard, simple mounted hockey blades on a skateboard. Was out yesterday until after dark.

Two meter conditions :-)

Image

Don't sharpen the skis too much. After a hard sesh on ice, your base melts and the edges come off. Cheaper to just buy another set of 20 year old skis, they aren't more than $10-$20 at the used sports gear shop or craigslist. Yesterday was perfect for skis, the ice was soft. When the ice gets hard, it really increases how hot the skis get because all the grip is in the metal at least that's my theory.

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Re: Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:22 pm

edt wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:36 pm
yeah the ice was pretty soft yesterday. I like hard ice better to be honest, it's better for my iceboard. I made a new iceboard, simple mounted hockey blades on a skateboard. Was out yesterday until after dark.

Two meter conditions :-)

Image

Don't sharpen the skis too much. After a hard sesh on ice, your base melts and the edges come off. Cheaper to just buy another set of 20 year old skis, they aren't more than $10-$20 at the used sports gear shop or craigslist. Yesterday was perfect for skis, the ice was soft. When the ice gets hard, it really increases how hot the skis get because all the grip is in the metal at least that's my theory.
To get the carbon sint of a base to absorb most ski waxes (for example Dominator Fx4) properly you have to heat the base to around 266F. Melting a high carbon sint base requires much more heat than that. It is unlikely that many are out there carrying speed to generate enough friction to exceed that and cause the base to literally melt. Non-sint old school extruded bases melt at lower temps but still...

On the hardwater, your bases are delaminating at the edge due to the high pressures and high-frequency vibration when edging. More specifically in the process of stopping and/or turning. Initially, it starts as a microscopic gap between the base material and edge material. Then as you continue to ride, you are forcing ice into the gap everytime the ski is sideloaded. Occasionally this is done while carving but generally, it is a function of edging while stopping.

Eventually, enough ice will have been introduced to the inner areas between the edge and under the base, causing the base to rise slightly. This causes a stress riser and high friction point. The base material is thin and pliable. And enough friction is generated to allow the base to become more pliable. The result, eventually the base detaches and starts to get stretched and torn. The visual result is a somewhat wavey appearance that looks very fluid and just like melting.

Edge sharpness is only a factor here in that a sharp edge will bite better and result in more rigorous vibration occurring during poor turning and/or stopping technique. My edges are exceptionally sharp. I have literally thousands of miles on some skis without any base failure. And I've had brand new skis that I've abused and wrecked the edge mase material in about 15 minutes. Technique is key to longevity here. feathering the skis and flattening the edge while using the kite as a breaking element will protect your skis.

This all said. There are exceptions. Many modern DH race skis are coming with base inserts along the edge underfoot at the high-pressure areas that are prone to failure. This is to offset wear/damage from the ice on the race course. Ironically, on the kite, these inserts (made of a separate piece of higher density P-Tex) tend to loosen and fall out like a loose tooth. Then this proceeds to open the rest of the base to delamination.

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edt
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Re: Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby edt » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:02 pm

Thanks. how fast do you ride on ice? 40+ mph? wonder if that matters

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Re: Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby kitexpert » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:19 pm

Hardwater Kiter wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:22 pm

To get the carbon sint of a base to absorb most ski waxes (for example Dominator Fx4) properly you have to heat the base to around 266F. Melting a high carbon sint base requires much more heat than that. It is unlikely that many are out there carrying speed to generate enough friction to exceed that and cause the base to literally melt. Non-sint old school extruded bases melt at lower temps but still...

On the hardwater, your bases are delaminating at the edge due to the high pressures and high-frequency vibration when edging. More specifically in the process of stopping and/or turning. Initially, it starts as a microscopic gap between the base material and edge material. Then as you continue to ride, you are forcing ice into the gap everytime the ski is sideloaded. Occasionally this is done while carving but generally, it is a function of edging while stopping.

Eventually, enough ice will have been introduced to the inner areas between the edge and under the base, causing the base to rise slightly. This causes a stress riser and high friction point. The base material is thin and pliable. And enough friction is generated to allow the base to become more pliable. The result, eventually the base detaches and starts to get stretched and torn. The visual result is a somewhat wavey appearance that looks very fluid and just like melting.

Edge sharpness is only a factor here in that a sharp edge will bite better and result in more rigorous vibration occurring during poor turning and/or stopping technique. My edges are exceptionally sharp. I have literally thousands of miles on some skis without any base failure. And I've had brand new skis that I've abused and wrecked the edge mase material in about 15 minutes. Technique is key to longevity here. feathering the skis and flattening the edge while using the kite as a breaking element will protect your skis.

This all said. There are exceptions. Many modern DH race skis are coming with base inserts along the edge underfoot at the high-pressure areas that are prone to failure. This is to offset wear/damage from the ice on the race course. Ironically, on the kite, these inserts (made of a separate piece of higher density P-Tex) tend to loosen and fall out like a loose tooth. Then this proceeds to open the rest of the base to delamination.
Exactly :idea: Ski base damage is not because of melting but because of strain and vibration on the edges. This can happen if surface is hard and if kiter makes aggressive turns dozens of times. It can be very fun, but skis don't like it. So if surface is icy and even slightly rough it is best not to rip it like crazy.

Damaged skis really look like base was melted, but real explanation is base material (and to some extent the structure of ski) just gets fatigued.

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Hardwater Kiter
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Re: Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:42 pm

edt wrote: Thanks. how fast do you ride on ice? 40+ mph? wonder if that matters
I've pushed a bit past 40mph once or twice.

Until recently there were no kite specific skis available. Skis made for lift access were never intended to endure what they get on the kite. Especially on hard surfaces.

I have some kite specific skis now that i hope to test this weekend. We'll see how they fair.

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Re: Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby edt » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:17 pm

I was out with Jeff last week he was riding on bare ice 40mph+ (only downwind tacks of course) for over 2 hours. It looked melted to me! But I'm thinking you are right it's all about the vibration ice sure was rough that day. By the way you know what you are doing, but I see these other threads where people new to snow kiting are asking about the "best" skis and I don't think they understand just how easy it is to ruin brand new skis! Cheap used skis are all over the place, I would start with those until you at least understand how not to ruin your brand new downhills.

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Hardwater Kiter
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Re: Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby Hardwater Kiter » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:16 am

Image

Did a 50 mile tour today. Top speed was 62mph. Ice was boilerplate and most of it was the total ski killing type. Not smooth and not fun at speed.

Found a vein of white slush ice about 3 miles long that was smooth enough to let it run and get some good speeds. :thumb:

Image

Total time out was about 2hr 45 min. Stopped a few times. A good way to spend part of the afternoon!

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SaulOhio
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Re: Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby SaulOhio » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:56 pm

edt: Really cool board you have there. The picture is dark, though. Do you have any better ones? I experimented with blades and skateboard trucks with a windsurfing sail before I took up kites.

Hardwater Kiter: I envy the locations and ice conditions you have up there in The Free State. Thanks for the info on how ice conditions affect your ski base. I had a pair of Atomic DH race skis where the base material fractured and fell off, and nobody could fix it. I often end up edging hard at the end of big speed runs to stop myself. I will try to take your advice on the subject to prolong the life of my skis.

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edt
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Re: Temperature and edging on ice.

Postby edt » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:36 pm

I have a bunch of boards, making a new one right now before heading out, gonna ride this south we have. The way I do it is have some sort of trucks and board, and then braze together aluminum mount on a 15-45 degree angle (you need an angle so the blades bite into the ice) to a set of hockey blades. The lower angles are better for slide stops (you have to be able to slide stop on an iceboard otherwise you are never stopping, lol), higher angles are better to grip the ice for carving. The mounting blade is probably the only important part. I have made boards from 5 feet down to this two footer. The bigger boards can take more wind, the little ones I need to use a 2m kite. Both are fun!

mounting plate for 5 foot board
Image

mounting plate for 2 foot board

Image

I guess I've made 30 different ice boards!

The little one is best at push boarding on the ice

https://youtu.be/nr3A_LlUSgI

the 5 footer is better with the kite can hold it down easier.


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