*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Dax's Crossbow Demo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:21 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:41 am
Posts: 2757
Location: Portland, Oregon
So here I am flying about the Gorge on a typical wacky 12mph-30mph day, and along comes this spaceship looking thing. Holy crap, that's the Crossbow (9m.)

The guys were nice enough to let me take it for a spin (thanks guys!) Here are my findings...

First Impressions:
DEPOWER! This thing goes from full on powered to trainer kite like pull in about 8 inches of sheeting. It’s a little unnerving at first because you can quickly lose track of what the kite is doing and have the feeling that it must have luffed and fell out of the sky because you can't feel it anymore, but its still flying merrily. Cool!

When riding the power control was really quite something. Pull back on the bar for some power, sheet out when you got too much. Its like your sheeting on your regular kite, but 10x more effective.

Speed:
Because of the effective sheeting of the kite and low drag, it rides very fast, which I like a lot. You really get a feeling of control like I haven't felt before on a traditional kite.

What about steering?:
It turns fast, truly pivots. Crank it hard and it spins like a top. Anyone could do kiteloops on this kite.

Jumping:
Kind of disappointed here, I don't think flat kites will be known for all out jumping performance like you might think. The one advantage is you could go out in normally overpowering conditions on a bigger kite and use the depower to set you up for some lofty jumps, but it just doesn't have the explosive lift of an "C" shape kite. I tried jumping it a number of different ways, the best ones where were when I didn't send it too far, those jumps weren't super high, but it did hang pretty good. I watched as a more experienced rider took it out, he did get some good jumps on it, but still not the huge boosts that you can get when you know what to do on a typical kite.

Bar Pressure:
This seems to be another area of disadvantage, during a few gusts I felt like I was holding nearly all the power in my arms, almost like being unhooked. Also to really take advantage of this kite, I doubt you would want to ride with it powered against a stopper ball, then you wouldn't be able to take advantage of its sheeting to control power. So those that are normally used to riding powered against the stopper ball, may not find this style of kite desirable.

Bar:
The bar I tried was a prototype, so I am not sure how much is fixed in production, but it did seem to be quite heavy and complicated. The double pulley system especially adds a great deal of complexity to things, and I'd be worried how serviceable all the components would be if anything were to break. But again, this was a prototype...

Relaunching:
I never got a chance to try it, but it seemed that relaunching was pretty instantaneous. Just pull on one line and it goes. Nice!

Upwind:
Seemed around average, I think you could get more upwind out of it once you had the feel for the sheeting dialed.

Range:
I think with the sheeting control this kite could have awesome range, especially at the high end.

Low end:
Not sure that there are any real breakthrough here. In lulls I had to work the kite the same as I would my regular 9m.

Conclusion:
The flat style kite is revolutionary for the beginner kiter or an all out safety solution for anyone. If you’re the type who takes safety of utmost importance, than this is the kite for you. The ability to instantly shutdown the power at any time is just awesome in that regard.

However, if you feel pretty comfortable with the current feel of your kite and its range then you probably wouldn't feel a big benefit to going to this type of kite. It is a fundamental shift in the way you will fly your kite, and for some that's not necessarily a good thing.

I talked to other experienced riders who took the kite out, and nobody was sure if they would switch or not. Everyone was impressed by the depower aspects though, that is definitely one part of this kite that has not been over hyped.

I think also its fair to mention that the Windwing Rapture that has been out for some time now is also a flat/depowerable kite. Windwing has taken off in the Gorge, their popularity has exploded in just a few months. The riders I have talked to who fly their kites all say the same things about depower and control. So I think they should be given the credit for being first to market with this new brand of kite.

Still the Cabrinha Crossbow lends a great deal of legitimacy to this design direction, and no doubt all others will follow now. These new flat kites are a huge breakthrough for our sport in terms of accessibility and safety. Good job guys.

Now, I suggest you give one demo and come to your own conclusions...

:bye:


{ SHARE_ON_FACEBOOK } { SHARE_ON_TWITTER } { SHARE_ON_ORKUT } { SHARE_ON_DIGG } { SHARE_ON_MYSPACE } { SHARE_ON_DELICIOUS }
Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:18 pm 
Well done dax,,

I came to a similar conclusion when I tested the 12 Rapture.

However I did not notice the bar pressure problem, I flew the Rap with the CC bar, WACK POWERED,, 35 to 40 mph. winds, and had no problem with the bar pressure,

it sounds or seems obvious to me like Cab has ripped off WW for the multipul pullied bar,,??

On the bar pressure issue?
Perhaps the Windwing Rapture is just a better design.

I also feel the flat kites find their benifits in the safety aspects,,

These are kites for powered conditions,,or for the safety aware and safety concerned,,

Smart Kites for Smart people.

If you're a shit for brains type you probably won't care for them...

So bottom line,,,

Still no free lunch,,,but at least you now have a menu to peruse.

Example,, my (expert level) bud was on my 13m hellfish, he's 235 lbs. busting huge, floaty airs (super nice proto-fish kite, don't drop it) and just hanging on all the rest of the time (it was way powered) while a 140 lb. first year advanced beginner was just cruising around having fun on a 15m. Rapture...

I was thinking man,,,,we've come along way...

If the little guy was on any other kite he'd be getting his ass kicked big time.

It's called progress, it's a choice now,, but not a solution,,

No solution to the do everything problem...

Nice review Dax, it smells of truth

fokiten

PS. Gumball's living in La La Land if he thinks he's getting that fish back...

On the other hand:

I'd never let a rookie ride it, I'd put them on a Rapture so they could have some real fun without much to worry about, about,,, Well? about getting spanked hard


Top
 Post subject: Dax's Crossbow Demo
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:51 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:32 pm
Posts: 845
Location: Calif. Mfg Rep
I think Dax's review was a fair one even though it was based on about a very short session... maybe a 10min ride. This kite is different and will take a few session to figure it out...and in some cases will take some changes in the way you ride. As a result, it will not be for eveyone. To be more specific, the technique for jumping and powered kite loop maneuvers.

FO: One of the WindWing designers also took the 9 Crossbow out and his comment to me was "A very nice kite." He also suggested that we could improve the bar by adding a "friiction depower system" similar to what Wipika tried once and I guess WW does or will have. No mention of ripping him/WW off.

I just got home from the Gorge and will post my impressions, and the feedback I received from the 10-15 people who rode the kite, as well as some video
steve


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Dax's Crossbow Demo
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:57 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:32 pm
Posts: 845
Location: Calif. Mfg Rep
I think Dax's review was a fair one even though it was based on about a very short session... maybe a 10min ride. This kite is different and will take a few session to figure it out...and in some cases will take some changes in the way you ride. As a result, it will not be for eveyone. To be more specific, the technique for jumping and powered kite loop maneuvers.

FO: One of the WindWing designers also took the 9 Crossbow out and his comment to me was "A very nice kite." He also suggested that we could improve the bar by adding a "friiction depower system" similar to what Wipika tried once and I guess WW does or will have. No mention of ripping him/WW off.

I just got home from the Gorge and will post my impressions, and the feedback I received from the 10-15 people who rode the kite, as well as some video
steve


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Dax's Crossbow Demo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:30 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:41 am
Posts: 2757
Location: Portland, Oregon
experienced1 wrote:
I think Dax's review was a fair one even though it was based on about a very short session... maybe a 10min ride. This kite is different and will take a few session to figure it out...and in some cases will take some changes in the way you ride. As a result, it will not be for eveyone. To be more specific, the technique for jumping and powered kite loop maneuvers.

FO: One of the WindWing designers also took the 9 Crossbow out and his comment to me was "A very nice kite." He also suggested that we could improve the bar by adding a "friiction depower system" similar to what Wipika tried once and I guess WW does or will have. No mention of ripping him/WW off.

I just got home from the Gorge and will post my impressions, and the feedback I received from the 10-15 people who rode the kite, as well as some video
steve


Cheers Steve... some videos would be great.

One thing about the WW bar, it is available and has been available since the beginning of the year. It does make a lot of sense for the flat/highly sheetable kite because its like having a stopper ball that is immediately adjustable. You just let go of the bar, and it stays where you left it.

Since these kites have huge sweet spots through sheeting, the sheeting action benefits from being as easy as possible.

Having a powerlock feature on a bar for example doesn't do the job because you need to unlock it to sheet out for a gust.

The Crossbow kite is very cool and could definitely never be accused of being "just another kite." The depower is underhyped if anything, but I think its maybe not the end all kite in all directions. That is not to say that it could not be the kite for most kiters.

WW kites are taking off in the Gorge because of their depower/gust handling capabilities. I think its a good direction for kiting to take to make truly safe kites such as WW/Crossbow/Nova. Bravo!

:thumb:


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Dax's Crossbow Demo
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:43 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:37 am
Posts: 330
Location: Wilmington, NC
experienced1 wrote:
He also suggested that we could improve the bar by adding a "friiction depower system" similar to what Wipika tried once and I guess WW does or will have.


I loved that bar that Wipika sold with the Airblasts, especially the second generation. It used p-tube covered sheeting line that went through an offset/crooked guide and a longhorn type bar. The rear lines would pull against the offset longhorns to rotate the bar and create friction through the guide. You very easily twisted the bar like a motorcycle throttle to unlock the bar. Very nice. I hope WW brings it back!


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Dax's Crossbow Demo
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:27 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:41 am
Posts: 2757
Location: Portland, Oregon
johnmelton wrote:
experienced1 wrote:
He also suggested that we could improve the bar by adding a "friiction depower system" similar to what Wipika tried once and I guess WW does or will have.


I loved that bar that Wipika sold with the Airblasts, especially the second generation. It used p-tube covered sheeting line that went through an offset/crooked guide and a longhorn type bar. The rear lines would pull against the offset longhorns to rotate the bar and create friction through the guide. You very easily twisted the bar like a motorcycle throttle to unlock the bar. Very nice. I hope WW brings it back!


What is the advantage of that vs. the CC bar that is always able to be moved but stays where you left it?


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:21 am 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:27 am
Posts: 67
Thanks Dax.

I appreciate it. You've always seemed pretty straight up here.

Here in Florida, we don't need mega depower like the Gorge. Heck, most of the year I simply need mega power.

I bought a Best BFK 21. I'm 6'4" 235 pounds (190+cm 110+kg). I'm finding its sweet spot for my big ass in Florida is about 17mph. Gusts in the low 20s are no problem. I could take it to 25 I'm sure.

It's all well and good to have a big kite that has a ton of upper end range. The only problem is, low-end grunt is all I'm looking for. It doesn't sound like the Crossbow is the answer there. Thanks Dax for cutting through the hype. This new Cabrinha will be the right kite for a lot of people. Unfortunately I'm not one of them.

So what is the answer for me? Anyone?

Big Steve


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:15 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:06 am
Posts: 717
To DAX:

As usual you have given kiteforum readers a fair, honest and extremely helpful review. :thumb:

I wish others would learn to do the same and then we would have a truly valuable (pimp free) forum!

Fo, expeirenced1, also great comments. Thanks.


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:28 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:41 am
Posts: 2757
Location: Portland, Oregon
cheers kitefighter :thumb:

One thing I'd like to reiterate on the jumping thing. The Crossbow can jump extremely well when in tons of wind. I saw a 12m going absolutely huge, but it was in 7m wind.

Also the depower is quite something... 110 lbs woman riding a 9m xbow no problem with me and my bud (both 170lbs) lit on "bucket" 9's.

Still don't think its for everyone though, I'd recommend a demo before you commit.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group