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 Post subject: rebel or bandit
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:03 am 
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Location: Australia
Looking at getting a 9m kite for the winder days and possibly getting out into the surf. I currently have a 12m rebel which I really like but am looking at the bandit for its quick relaunch and the fact that the local kite shop has them in stock (Lots of wind forecast for the next week).I will have to wait about a week for a rebel. Has anyone ridden both kites and how do they compare (especially top end wind range).The only thing I don’t like about the bandit is that it has pullies and the problems that will arise if one of the bridles snaps in high winds. Any feedback appreciated


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:48 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:00 am
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Location: Garmisch-Pa./Bavaria
I had the opportunity to ride a 9m North Evo in Brasil´s waves and did some brief relaunch testing. With a 4-line setup the Evo never failed. It´s nature is to perfectly relaunch from any position and never gets its lines tangled due to the very small bridle and wide space between the tips.
Coming from Rebels, I never had a better overall package in my hands.
You feel soooo save !

watch my short clips taken:

[youtube]http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=A9Gq5BRat0E[/youtube]

[youtube]http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=QPe2gXynnVA[/youtube]

[youtube]http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=yvT_KkIWib8[/youtube]

[youtube]http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=MtpVfMUpU6U[/youtube]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:54 am
Posts: 469
Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Last season I used a Rebel07 9m2 with a TT (666 129x39) and my surfboard (Underground Tuflite 5'8"), my weight is 75kg/165lbs

I have sold my Rebel for a Bandit 9m2 because of it's stability and relaunch. I have used it for a few times now only with my TT. I also played around with it in surf (4 to 5 feet waves). So far I used it in 25kn which felt like I still had plenty of depower. But with the Rebel07 9m2 that was the same thing in that windspeed.

I was about to order the Rebel08 9m2, but skipped it after testing the Bandit. So I cannot give you my opinion about that. Personally I think the concept of a flat kite without any supporting bridle will be a trouble restarting in difficult situations. That is my experience after testing many 07 and 08 kites of different brands.

My experiences comparing the Rebel07 9m2 vs. Bandit 9m2:

    The auto relaunch works very well :thumb:
    Low-end slightly better due to a lot more grunt the Bandit produces. A feature I like when using a surfboard in waves. It makes it easier to 'escape' a collapsing wave just by pulling the bar instead of have to sinus the kite first for some pull)
    Stability extremely better, especially in gusty winds and when jumping underneath the kite, or when you get washed by a wave downwind. Here the Bandit stands out by a huge difference compared to the previous model Rebel :thumb:
    steering speed slower thant the Rebel. Of course last seasons Rebel was one of the fastest steering kites on the market. Although a good feature for riding waves, most of the times too fast and because the barpressure was low you sometimes lost the kite in the window. Not with the Bandit
    More bar pressure with much more feedback. Perfect for freestyle and riding the waves without having to watch your kite a lot.
    Ability to steer the kite when depowered a lot. Again the Bandit is superior in this, as is the Helix too. It stil steers when you depower a lot. Perfect :thumb:
    Flying speed is higher with the Bandit. But with just applying pressure to the bar you can limit the distance the Bandit flies to the edge of the window for constant pull.
    Depowerbility (new English word?). Both kites have an equal depowerrange. But I personally think the Rebel07 depowers more when sheeting out the same distance as if you would on the Bandit. This gives the Bandit a smoother ride, but riding a surfboard this could be a small disadvantage if you want to ride the waves without the pull of the kite. I have to test this first to give a final comment about that
    Low-end performance is better with the Bandit. Between 15-20kn you can do backloops and grabs easily, where with the Rebel you need more steam
    Pop is amazing of the Bandit, like you would expect from a freestyle kite. But I fully agree the Bandit is much more versatile to call it a freestyle kite only.
    The Rebel is not a really fast kite. With the Bandit the speed is tremendous, even a bit faster as my R7 which is not slow at all. With the Rebel it is just like there is a force which prevents you to accelerate at a certain point. Have not found that point on the Bandit yet


So to conclude the Bandit is a big improvement on the Rebel07 9m2, tested head to head. I would almost say the handling of the kite is more like the Rhino07 than the Rebel07, but much smoother and more forgiving than the R7.

I agree that F-one succeeded in producing a real new concept which really works a lot better what was already on the market.

Did you know both Jamie Herraiz and Sky Solbach (North int. team riders) are using the new Evo prototypes only in waves? Nobody sees them around with the Rebel08 anymore. Not that that means the new rebel is shit (I hear good stories about that too), but the Evo is a new concept which seems to work well.

I have not detected any wear of the pulley's yet. But in order to answer that question I have to use it much and much more. But I have the latest version of the V-bridle and it seems to work very well.

(before people started to point at me as to be a sponsored rider: I ride North, and tested a lot of 07 and 08 kites lately. I have to pay for my gear like the most of us. And I did not get a substantial discount if I write nice about this kite 8) )


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:08 pm 
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Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Foxi wrote:
I had the opportunity to ride a 9m North Evo in Brasil´s waves and did some brief relaunch testing.


Hello Foxi, back from Brasil already?

What about your experience testing your Bandit 9m2 vs. Evo 9m2? I am very curious to hear about that.

So far I have not managed to get my Bandit fall through it's own lines. But I have seen somebody doing just that. But he was able to relaunch again and go back to shore to untwist his lines. Something which I did not succeed in with the Rebel all the times.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:00 am
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Location: Garmisch-Pa./Bavaria
I could compare a Bandit 9m and Evo 9m side by side.
As you can see, the outline is quite similar:

Image

the main difference in flying character is born by the different profiles used:

the Bandit has a very deep entry whilest the Evo uses a similar profile as the Rebel does, with it´s greatest depth more allocated to the middle.
see the pic below with the pink Bandit middle strut and the yellow Evo one.

Image

the result is a very early planing Bandit with a quite challenging character in waves, as the power development turning the kite in front of the wave is quite demanding. I was prefering the Evo in this respect, as it turns smoother, especially for a rider coming from Rebels. The Bandit´s lift is a bit more aggressive whilest the Evo has the edge in a bit floatier hang.
Bottom line is that they are significantly different in character, so that I only can recommend anyone to try before buy.

the safety works completely different on both kites.
as you can see below, North uses a very simple and small bridle

Image

once the safety is released, the kite stays at the wind window with the profile completely braking in like a sheeted out windsurf sail. No pull left.
If this position gets disturbed as you can see in my clip, the kite falls into a face to face position which is totally stable unless you roll the kite up by pulling in one leader line. The benefit of this type of safety, which I was sceptical about till I could play around with it a couple of days, is, that you never get this rolling-on-its-back-and-flying-up issue. And this is worth gold !

as there is so much space between the left and right bridle attachments, as you can see below, the kite can also easily roll through if lines go slack after a failed trick.

Image

I like my Rebels a lot, but this Evo in 4-line mode made me change my mind when it comes to rough conditions where you seek for confidence in your equipment and relaunch in an eye blink.

a Delta kite will never outperform a more supported profile when it comes to upwind abilities and hangtime. It´s a compromise limited by it´s safety and relaunch concept. It will also never be THE tool for dedicated wakestylers. In my case I´d judge it THE tool for rough conditions and anyone annoyed by low relaunch success rates. I have to see how the bigger sizes compare to more sophisticated higher AR´s. North has marketed the Evo as an entry and intermediate level kite and for sure any schools will highly praise them for it. We have to see if the Evo has the right genes to become a public darling like the first Vegas did. Also more unintended initially. The character of the Evo plus the brilliant bar system are preconditions not found in every season !


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:05 pm 
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Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Foxi wrote:
I like my Rebels a lot, but this Evo in 4-line mode made me change my mind when it comes to rough conditions where you seek for confidence in your equipment and relaunch in an eye blink.


Thanks for the very clear comparison including some pictures :thumb:

Especially the picture of the bridle and the Bandit (odd colour, almost thought it was a North kite) next to the Evo flat out.

The profile says many things indeed for me. I find the Bandit a very powerful kite, yet easy to control that power. I had no problems in waves, but being used to the R7 I might expect the massive pull when steering the kite.

I have to test it with my waveboard still though. This might be more difficult since the pull ripps you off the board.

I guess also the bar pressure is lower than the Bandit? The Evo movie from North:

[youtube]http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-ZfDSsUa8&NR=1[/youtube]

shows some of that float. I also find the Bandit very floaty in jumps. Even more than my R7!

I just spoke to the Dutch supplier, they will be in for testing early February. I will hook on, but due to your story aboujt the profile and low-end I think for me personally the Bandit is better suited.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:40 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:50 pm
Posts: 644
Location: Central Coast, CA
Foxi wrote:
I could compare a Bandit 9m and Evo 9m side by side.
As you can see, the outline is quite similar:


the main difference in flying character is born by the different profiles used:

the Bandit has a very deep entry whilest the Evo uses a similar profile as the Rebel does, with it´s greatest depth more allocated to the middle.
see the pic below with the pink Bandit middle strut and the yellow Evo one.


the result is a very early planing Bandit with a quite challenging character in waves, as the power development turning the kite in front of the wave is quite demanding. I was prefering the Evo in this respect, as it turns smoother, especially for a rider coming from Rebels. The Bandit´s lift is a bit more aggressive whilest the Evo has the edge in a bit floatier hang.
Bottom line is that they are significantly different in character, so that I only can recommend anyone to try before buy.

the safety works completely different on both kites.
as you can see below, North uses a very simple and small bridle


once the safety is released, the kite stays at the wind window with the profile completely braking in like a sheeted out windsurf sail. No pull left.
If this position gets disturbed as you can see in my clip, the kite falls into a face to face position which is totally stable unless you roll the kite up by pulling in one leader line. The benefit of this type of safety, which I was sceptical about till I could play around with it a couple of days, is, that you never get this rolling-on-its-back-and-flying-up issue. And this is worth gold !

as there is so much space between the left and right bridle attachments, as you can see below, the kite can also easily roll through if lines go slack after a failed trick.


I like my Rebels a lot, but this Evo in 4-line mode made me change my mind when it comes to rough conditions where you seek for confidence in your equipment and relaunch in an eye blink.

a Delta kite will never outperform a more supported profile when it comes to upwind abilities and hangtime. It´s a compromise limited by it´s safety and relaunch concept. It will also never be THE tool for dedicated wakestylers. In my case I´d judge it THE tool for rough conditions and anyone annoyed by low relaunch success rates. I have to see how the bigger sizes compare to more sophisticated higher AR´s. North has marketed the Evo as an entry and intermediate level kite and for sure any schools will highly praise them for it. We have to see if the Evo has the right genes to become a public darling like the first Vegas did. Also more unintended initially. The character of the Evo plus the brilliant bar system are preconditions not found in every season !


Great comparison. Also, liked migs comments on Bandit. Did the North Evo bar have different front and back line lengths like the Bandit bar or did the North Evo have a long rear pigtail or neither ? Does the North Evo bar have a stopper system of any kind. Did you feel as safe with the safety on North Evo as with a 5th line (how does Eco safety compare with Bandit )? Also, please confirm which kite has more bar pressure.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:50 pm
Posts: 644
Location: Central Coast, CA
mig27 wrote:
....Did you know both Jamie Herraiz and Sky Solbach (North int. team riders) are using the new Evo prototypes only in waves? Nobody sees them around with the Rebel08 anymore. Not that that means the new rebel is shit (I hear good stories about that too), but the Evo is a new concept which seems to work well......[/i] 8) )[/size]


Fascinating rumor that North planetary team riders have supposedly traded their Rebol 08s for the Evo for riding waves. I do like the Bandit in waves (at present, I have a Bandit 7.5 and 9m) :!:


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