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 Post subject: My review of the Cloud C2 17m
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:33 am 
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Posts: 238
After a long time researching for a light wind wave kite and not having access to demos I pulled the trigger and bought the big Cloud. In theory it just made sense and seemed the only hope to escape the law of diminishing returns of light wind riding, a law which becomes specially mercyless when going down the line a wave towards the kite.

In short, I couldn't be happier with it. The way it drifts when depowered, which is the result of the canopy's luffing aided by the ultra low weight of the kite, opened a whole new realm of light wind kitesurfing for me.

For the kind of riding I use it (hooked down-the-line off the wind wave riding), I would say the main PROs are:

- Paradigm-shifting drift
- Direct steering and turning response to input (result of combination between low inertia, short non-pulleyd bridle, and low aspect-ratio planform with wide wingtips), feels like a much smaller kite (yes I know this sounds like marketing BS, sorry)
- Negligible vertical pull when fully depowered (luffing canopy equals significant drag, which makes the kite drift downwind along with the rider, but negligible lift), allowing for a less "strings attached" type of feel when trying to emulate surfing
- Extremely resistant to hindenburging (front-stalling) due to either lulls or overflying, result of how the low weight is distributed depthwise. I once spent about an hour flying it on the beach in almost no wind and trying hard to make it front-stall with abrupt and long depower inputs, and could only front-stall it twice (when the wind died it just slowly back-stalled). Any other kite would have front-stalled "n" times.

Also, the low inflate-deflate times (result of both the lack of struts and super nice high flow valve) and packing volume are a welcome plus, even though not the reason why I would buy a kite or not.

As for the CONs, I can only mention:

- When water does get over the canopy, relaunch becomes tricky and may be eventually impossible (for flatwater riders this would not be an issue, specially in light wind (no tall whitecaps), since when the canopy is free the relaunch is actually easier than most kites).

For me personally, this CON doesn't have any practical effect, since after having some kites destroyed by waves in the past I've made full ejection a standard procedure if the kite isn't relaunched in a handful of seconds.

Other riders (specially in flat water) may not be able to enjoy the full potentialities of this kite, and may also find other CONs depending on their riding style, for example:
- lack of static grunt for wakestylers
- lack of hangtime for oldstylers
- increase in drag when depowered beyond a certain threshold
- canopy luffing during kiteloops, specifically the second half (for the donwloops I do when waveriding the luffing is actually a good thing, since it translates to less power and more drift downwind at a still smaller than average looping time from start to finish)

Please note that these "CONs" are extremely subjective. For my riding style, they are nothing but part of what makes the PROs mentioned above possible.

Also, if you are looking for just riding back and forth in the lightest of winds, there are better options out there. The Cloud does not have neither a deep airfoil profile (which would translate in static grunt, i.e. sheer power in low apparent wind speeds, suitable for low-efficiency boards) nor it develops much more L/D at higher apparent wind speeds (like the race kites, suitable for high-efficiency boards) due to its low aspect-ratio.
But those other kites simply do not work for light wind DTL on swell-driven waves.

So to sum it up, this kite may not be for everyone, but for me it was the missing link between kiteboarding in light winds and kitesurfing in light winds. For what I expect from a wave kite, I would go as far as to say it was the single most important innovation in this sport, more than any other since going from 2 to 4 lines. :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: My review of the Cloud C2 17m
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:25 am 
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Thanks for the review, I have been following and playing with strut less kites and designs with interest, and have been testing/flying a 10m strut less design for a few weeks now, i am kitelooping it with out flapping, and getting great hang time and float. You mentioned the 17m may lack hang time and float, Do the smaller sizes lack hang time and float also?


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 Post subject: Re: My review of the Cloud C2 17m
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:34 am 
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Location: Where The Hype Is!
TheKiteDesigner wrote:
You mentioned the 17m may lack hang time and float, Do the smaller sizes lack hang time and float also?
There are 2 guys who might tell the BS to adjust the bar or you're not a good rider if your boosting or hangtime is no good on strutless :wink: :alarm:


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 Post subject: Re: My review of the Cloud C2 17m
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:03 am 
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TheKiteDesigner wrote:
Thanks for the review, I have been following and playing with strut less kites and designs with interest, and have been testing/flying a 10m strut less design for a few weeks now, i am kitelooping it with out flapping, and getting great hang time and float. You mentioned the 17m may lack hang time and float, Do the smaller sizes lack hang time and float also?


Unfortunately I have flown only the 17m.
But I would say that the lack of hangtime is due to the low projected aspect-ratio, not to the lack of struts. So other strutless kites may behave much differently.
Good luck with your designs and let us know how they progress!


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 Post subject: Re: My review of the Cloud C2 17m
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:26 am
Posts: 107
Location: Tanzania
Hi guys just received the 14.5 and to give u my impression on the windrange:
Up to now 4 sessions on paipo and alaia. I am 78 kg and kite in warm tradewinds.
1 first session started at 13 knots. Was nicely powered. Didnt need more. Ended at 17. Completely overpowered. Cloud luffing a lot.
2 second session. Between 9 and 11 knots. For me perfect. At 9 i could keep my line. At 11 kn i was going upwind
3 third session started at 11 kn. perfect. Ended with 15 overpowered. Only way to sail was going upwind slowly and kite high
4 fourth session. Same between 12 and 15. Powered very well.

I would say that the sweet spot of this kite for me is 10 to 13 knots. I could try it from 8 to 9 knots onwards and sail it up to 16-17 knots but not really enjoying. When its a steady 13 kn and over i need to downsize. But thats a personal impression, so dont take it as valid for all.

Great job by BRM


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 Post subject: Re: My review of the Cloud C2 17m
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 4:43 am
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lobodomar wrote:
For me personally, this CON doesn't have any practical effect, since after having some kites destroyed by waves in the past I've made full ejection a standard procedure if the kite isn't relaunched in a handful of seconds.

Amen to this. That is what I do for the small Clouds, too. Way better for you and for the kite if you aren't attached when a wave hits it!


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 Post subject: Re: My review of the Cloud C2 17m
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:40 pm
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ankers wrote:
Hi guys just received the 14.5 and to give u my impression on the windrange:
Up to now 4 sessions on paipo and alaia. I am 78 kg and kite in warm tradewinds.
1 first session started at 13 knots. Was nicely powered. Didnt need more. Ended at 17. Completely overpowered. Cloud luffing a lot.
2 second session. Between 9 and 11 knots. For me perfect. At 9 i could keep my line. At 11 kn i was going upwind
3 third session started at 11 kn. perfect. Ended with 15 overpowered. Only way to sail was going upwind slowly and kite high
4 fourth session. Same between 12 and 15. Powered very well.

I would say that the sweet spot of this kite for me is 10 to 13 knots. I could try it from 8 to 9 knots onwards and sail it up to 16-17 knots but not really enjoying. When its a steady 13 kn and over i need to downsize. But thats a personal impression, so dont take it as valid for all.

Great job by BRM


I agree, IMO the 17m also has a relatively thin sweet spot. I think the "usable" windrange of the Clouds is actually wider than other kites, but after a certain threshold it's more like survival kiting, with the canopy luffing a lot, very slow turning speed and upwind compromised due to the increased drag, so definitely not enjoyable. But inside the sweet spot it's just in a class of its own when used in the waves! If I could I would definitely buy a 12m to complement the sweet spot of my 17, since my 12m strutted kite simply doesn't work in the surf (doesn't drift enough to keep up with the wave).

In regards to the lowend, I think you made a very good choice coupling it with the Paipo (well, no wonder that's what the BRM crew uses too!) I found that, not being a grunty kite, the Cloud doesn't like boards that stick too much to the water.


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 Post subject: Re: My review of the Cloud C2 17m
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:26 am
Posts: 107
Location: Tanzania
Greg explained me a bit yesterday how to prevent this luffing and how much pressure you should put on the backlines including when gybing. On my yesterdays session it worked much better and kite was not luffing anymore, at least not that often. I think i reduced the luffing with 60pct. BRM claims that it will take a few more session for me to finetune the backline pressure. Thats ok. My last 5 sessions were as never before. Dont wanna use my parks anymore.......


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 Post subject: Re: My review of the Cloud C2 17m
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:19 am 
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Medium Poster

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:26 am
Posts: 107
Location: Tanzania
Greg explained me a bit yesterday how to prevent this luffing and how much pressure you should put on the backlines including when gybing. On my yesterdays session it worked much better and kite was not luffing anymore, at least not that often. I think i reduced the luffing with 60pct. BRM claims that it will take a few more session for me to finetune the backline pressure. Thats ok. My last 5 sessions were as never before. Dont wanna use my parks anymore.......


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