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Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

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mariojay
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Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby mariojay » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:04 pm

Hello, my name is Mario and I'm the designer of DYNABAR and other JAY company equipment.

Some of you remember the effort we made in 2008 to bring to market the Sliding Hook System SHS and after 9 versions and 5500pcs sold
we are trying to understand why this solution is not yet well accepted by all kiters despite thousands of happy customers.

Since 3 years ago the market leaders didn't consider SHS as a valid option to bring to market, but in 2014 Mystic and DaKine designed a
"sliding hook on webbing" solution. It was not bad for us to have no-competitors, but we knew that competition was the key-factor to let
spread this technology.

2014 was also the year RideEngine started to produce custom Rigid Shell Waist Harness RSWH equipped by DYNABAR as an SHS option.
Rigid harness limits body compression due to harness strain caused by pull load.

In 2015 JAY designed PowerBand and WingedPad, a solution to upgrade any soft harness to a no-strain RSWH harness.

Finally 2017 is the year almost all brands producing accessories have a RSWH equipped by a SHS in their catalogue: Mystic, Dakine, ION, ProLimit, RideEngine, JAY and Brunotti.

Today the kite harness technology 2.0 is here and every kiter should consider to use it.

First I remind the benefits of a SHS
Easy to walk on the beach, specially when you are beginner
Less stress to back muscles and less back pain.
Reduced body compression
Reduced waist harness ride up
Increased hip movement using a seat harness
Better up-wind angles
Improved wave riding style, specially in strong winds
Easy toe side in waveriding and foiling.
A must in snowkiting esing ski and directional snowboard.

Second let's identify the target for SHS:
100% wave
100% freeride
100% snow
1% freestyle
Let say 91% of the kitesurfing community should use a SHS.

Third, RSWH and SHS technologies
RE started the challenge and they use fiberglass-carbonfiber-resin composite as shell keeping a standard harness construction,
they also designed a SHS with dyneema rope slider as DYNABAR. Rigid shell distributes load on the back and limit body compression
due to kite pull.

JAY introduced first ABS in 2014 and FlexTech 2.0 in 2015, both designed to limit compression without limiting body movement.
in 2017 JAY designed also a new assembly technology who allows to easily replace wear out or broken parts.

DaKine, Mystic and ProLimit introduced new thermoplastic composites the shell is made of, the harness construction technology
is almost the same as RideEngine, Same dyneema rope slider for the SHS.

My experience is that a rigid shell harness combined by a SHS is the best purchase a kiter can do, but other technical details,
like the composite flex and the construction quality, should be carefully kept in consideration before the purchase.

Forth, why you see few kiters using an SHS?
What a pity for all of you who missed a SHS during last 9 years...
My personal answer is that only when the market leaders start a wave in one direction than all the customers have to surf it.

My suggestion is "starting from tomorrow a rigid shell harness equipped by SHS is a must to have in your kite equipment",
but I'm involved in the business and my suggestion should be taken carefully.

Finally if there are questions I will be glad to answer them from my professional experience point of view.

Cheers

BWD
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Re: Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby BWD » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:29 pm

Seems to me there are two possible benefits:
First, reducing torque applied by hook to CL connection - especially vertical torque which contributes to harness riding up.
Second, allowing more stance variation by sliding connection toward rider's forward hip.

I don't have a sliding hook. Currently I use a BRM type connection to a standard hook (actually attached to a crossbar halfway up the hook, shortening lever arm a few cm). This seems to slightly reduce lateral torque but has little help against vertical torque - harness still rides up sometimes.

I am sure reducing the lever/torque is a benefit, less sure having the tow point/connection slide across the body is helpful with a waist harness. But open to trying it.

Thanks to innovators like Dynabar, Engine, BRM for taking new solutions into production, keeping the sport fresh and progressing!

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rynhardt
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Re: Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby rynhardt » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:18 pm

Does Jay focus mainly on waist harnesses? Do you think seat harness users will benefit as much from your Rigid Shell technology?

NorCalNomad
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Re: Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby NorCalNomad » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:04 pm

Why are you so into acronyms?

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mariojay
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Re: Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby mariojay » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:02 pm

BWD wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:29 pm
Seems to me there are two possible benefits:
First, reducing torque applied by hook to CL connection - especially vertical torque which contributes to harness riding up.
Second, allowing more stance variation by sliding connection toward rider's forward hip.

I don't have a sliding hook. Currently I use a BRM type connection to a standard hook (actually attached to a crossbar halfway up the hook, shortening lever arm a few cm). This seems to slightly reduce lateral torque but has little help against vertical torque - harness still rides up sometimes.

I am sure reducing the lever/torque is a benefit, less sure having the tow point/connection slide across the body is helpful with a waist harness. But open to trying it.

Thanks to innovators like Dynabar, Engine, BRM for taking new solutions into production, keeping the sport fresh and progressing!
I designed the DYNABAR with holes in order to attach the dyneema slider as close as possible to spreaderbar. All the new sliding systems based on dyneema slider are using the same concept to reduce the torque problem.
Try adding a dyneema rope and a ring, better two, to your spreaderbar for a while and you won't go back.
Image
Image
Image

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mariojay
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Re: Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby mariojay » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:09 pm

rynhardt wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:18 pm
Does Jay focus mainly on waist harnesses? Do you think seat harness users will benefit as much from your Rigid Shell technology?
I think the seat harness is an old concep for kitesurfing and I won't design one.
In 2014 I designed the leg straps accessory to be added to a waist harness, you have more options to split load between waist, legs and bottom.
Another plus is you can keep the hook at the position you like more, with seat harness is impossible.
Image

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mariojay
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Re: Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby mariojay » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:10 pm

NorCalNomad wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:04 pm
Why are you so into acronyms?
I use acronyms to avoid to repeat the same sequence of words and I don't like copy&paste 8)

BWD
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Re: Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby BWD » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:13 pm

Try adding a dyneema rope and a ring, better two, to your spreaderbar for a while and you won't go back.
it's on the to do list, I will try. thanks!!

yzbob
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Re: Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby yzbob » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:06 pm

i think this could be down to your marketing, website and availability.

dynabar is something i've wanted to try for a long time but never been in the right place at the right time to borrow one or find one to test. I travel a lot so not something i can easily arrange because i don't have a "local beach" or kite shop.
secondly earlier in the year when i was about to just buy it on a whim because i was without a harness i think your website wasn't taking orders or didn't have the size i can't remember exactly. After xmas i think?
Currently it seems like the EU website doesn't have stock of all the sizes or products?
i think also there are so many different variations and accessories people might get overwhelmed by the choice.

these days people can buy stuff with a few clicks on amazon or other websites. i think this is something you need to improve on.
you need to have stock of ALL items ALL the time.
you need a secure professional website, your website is poor un-secure and gives a very amature impression.
on your website you have links to partners that don't even have a website.
partners that do have websites have "call for availability" on your products.

i'm sure the product is good but if you want to sell more you need to SELL! make it easier to buy. I don't remember the specifics at the time but i would have one already if it weren't for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with your actual product.

hope you find this constructive criticism helpful.

bob

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rynhardt
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Posts: 644
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:51 pm
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Local Beach: Leeupan
Favorite Beaches: Langebaan
Style: Freeride
Gear: GK vSonic 6 & 11
Cloud C2 17
Progeni Mutare
Xelerator door
Hoff DD140
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Re: Kite Harness 2.0, a technical overview from designer

Postby rynhardt » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:23 pm

mariojay wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:09 pm
rynhardt wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:18 pm
Does Jay focus mainly on waist harnesses? Do you think seat harness users will benefit as much from your Rigid Shell technology?
I think the seat harness is an old concep for kitesurfing and I won't design one.
In 2014 I designed the leg straps accessory to be added to a waist harness, you have more options to split load between waist, legs and bottom.
Another plus is you can keep the hook at the position you like more, with seat harness is impossible.
But I suppose seat harness users could still benefit from the sliding attachment point.
I wonder what percentage of kiters still use seat harnesses.. 50%?


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