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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:42 pm 
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everyone is interested in this showdown.

I don't think Mark said anything wrong here!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:23 pm 
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In Armin's first post, he offered to bet $1... That was ignored and I haven't read much in that thread since.

My offer was either

1) $100,000, or;

2) $10,000 and all money goes to charity

Then I offered him straight up $10,000 - Best would donate winnings to charity, he can do what he pleases if he should win - it is he who has not responded to my offer/bet...

Problem is, Armin wants to do just a straight low-wind test to see who can ride a board in as little wind as possible. I want to do a light wind test whereby everything is judged, low wind power, turning speed, jumping, hangtime, fun factor, etc... See, the big Hellfish feel and act like much smaller kites, and they make light wind kiting fun. Struggling to keep ground in 3-5 knots on a foil or a Hellfish isn't fun in my book and none of us actually ride in those conditions. Having FUN in 5-8 knots is something that's availbale to everyone now - my bet is simply that the Hellfish will allow you to have much more fun then a huge foil that feels and turns like a truck.

The foil will probably win the absolute low wind / being able to ride test because 26m projected area vs 17m projected area (25m Hellfish) has advantages even to the most stupid among us. But, after that, the Hellfish will win in every category.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:56 pm 
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gumball wrote:
In Armin's first post, he offered to bet $1... That was ignored and I haven't read much in that thread since.

My offer was either

1) $100,000, or;

2) $10,000 and all money goes to charity

Then I offered him straight up $10,000 - Best would donate winnings to charity, he can do what he pleases if he should win - it is he who has not responded to my offer/bet...

Problem is, Armin wants to do just a straight low-wind test to see who can ride a board in as little wind as possible. I want to do a light wind test whereby everything is judged, low wind power, turning speed, jumping, hangtime, fun factor, etc... See, the big Hellfish feel and act like much smaller kites, and they make light wind kiting fun. Struggling to keep ground in 3-5 knots on a foil or a Hellfish isn't fun in my book and none of us actually ride in those conditions. Having FUN in 5-8 knots is something that's availbale to everyone now - my bet is simply that the Hellfish will allow you to have much more fun then a huge foil that feels and turns like a truck.

The foil will probably win the absolute low wind / being able to ride test because 26m projected area vs 17m projected area (25m Hellfish) has advantages even to the most stupid among us. But, after that, the Hellfish will win in every category.


Armin factored in 3 jumps at which hangtime and lift would be judged from the video, he also factored in looping the kite 3 times so that the turning speed can be judged and you never accepted or offered anything else, it was also noted that a 3rd party judge will be available as well and that everything would be video'd, so people can decide for themselves. He also said he would compete with the 17m Speed which has a projected area of 15.3m and not with the 26m ps2.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:12 pm 
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Tone and Mark both joined on the same day in Dec 2003.

My that is quite a coincidence now isn't it. Mark, make it less obvious and sign up as another alter ego so we can't tell. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:18 pm 
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Quote:
Tone and Mark both joined on the same day in Dec 2003.

My that is quite a coincidence now isn't it. Mark, make it less obvious and sign up as another alter ego so we can't tell. :lol:


Tone, Mark, Maddog,

Dudes, the thread is very interesting. If you guys want to fight, take it to flamer's paradise, and let the thread develop with the interesting info that is provided.

K66


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:58 pm 
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Ok Gumball, heres Armins original post:

Posted Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:16 am

"Bet in details:

Date is 8.-9.

Toby is the unbiased judge

Each of us will bring 2 identically boards with us. After testing the
boards, we can choose if we want the FS or Best Board in each lap.

If we get more competitors, we will bring more boards with us. I
recommend limiting it to overall 4 competitor brands to allow a fair
competition head by head.

We do a 3 time 500m upwind course with one completely relaunch with
leading edge down while the upwind course. At the end we make 3 jumps.
Hangtime in sec and jumping height in m will be measured from the video
tape. The time for going upwind incl. relaunch will be reduced for the
Hangtime (seconds) and Height (meter) from the 3 jumps.
We should also count time to for looping the kite 3 times and decrease
it from the upwind time.
If someone is handycaped by someone else, Toby is free to restart the
lap for a fair event.

As it is a light wind competition we should do it at an average windspeed
from 6 to 12 knt. If we have very gusty conditions, we still have to do
our competition. That will help to see how the kite works in such gusty
wind and how the windrange is.

The 2 of the 3 Laps of each will be added. She shortest overall time is
the winner of the light wind competition.

At the end everybody can show to the video tape, how stable the kite is
and how it is to use in is such light wind. Also it is very welcome to
show the top and absolutely low limit of that kite to the tape.

After than we change the kites and try to destroy the kite from each
other which crashing it to the Water.

All details (jumping height, Hangtime, Turningspeedtime, Upwindtime will
be separately shown on the tape).

Rider weight is incl. Board, Harness, must be min 80 Kg which should be
a good standard weight.

If the forum wants. Toby will buy our serial Kites on the Market from our money.

The competitors will pay the flight and accommodation for the judge and
cutting of the tape.

Bye, Armin"


Direct link : http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopi ... c&start=80


So its not only low wind, we are talking about fun factor here. If you are still willing, lets get it on. We all want to have fun on the water so lets see which kite will deliver.




And all the others - stop posting noise - if you believe im a three in one, please check the ips or ask toby. Im probably not even on the same continent as the other guys. Besides ive got nothing to hide, its my real name, you know where i am, what i fly, what i sell and where you can find me (check the real people thread if u like).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:01 pm 
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It won't work Mark, he won't go for it, the test and bet both require production kites, the 25m Hellfish will not be in production by then. Maybe people will have a 13m by then though, maybe they should enter that, it does plane and jump in 6kts according to one best reseller.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:10 pm 
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Location: NW Pacific
Rating the "Fun factor" is kind of like
different guys rating different orgasms with different women

or vice versa if you happen to be a woman.

Not an easy thing to put a qualifier on.

Some like em skinny and fast,
some like em fat and slow,

Some like em any way they can get em.

and not something
I,
personally,

would be willing to stake 10,000 dollars on.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:11 pm 
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Location: Wilmington, NC
gumball wrote:
The foil will probably win the absolute low wind / being able to ride test because 26m projected area vs 17m projected area (25m Hellfish) has advantages even to the most stupid among us. But, after that, the Hellfish will win in every category.


Don't be so quick to doubt your creation Alex, after comparing the 26m P2 to a 18m Windwing Rapture, I found only a 1 to 2 mph advantage on low end for the 26m. And once the wind increased 1 or 2 mph into the 18m's low wind range, the 18m blew the 26m P2 away in upwind ability and of course turning speed. If your 25m Hellfish is fast enough, it could generate enough apparent wind to give 26m P2 and even the 17m Speed a run for the money in absolute low wind. Or maybe I am just in the stupid group.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:16 pm 
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Following up on my last post: I have to give Flysurfer credit, the 26m P2 beats my 22.3m Airblast by 2mph on the low end and goes upwind better. Though the Airblast has the P2 by 4mph on top end. Please make this contest happen, I think both Best and Flysurfer have more to gain than lose, they both appear to have awesome products.


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