*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:51 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:00 am
Posts: 29014
Location: World (KF Admin)
now I understand your motivation! Sometimes be happy for others...makes you a happier person as well! Think about it!


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:58 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:35 pm
Posts: 1538
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Toby wrote:
now I understand your motivation! Sometimes be happy for others...makes you a happier person as well! Think about it!


Dude, I'm happy for yah, you should be also, sure I'm jealous but who wouldn't be, doesn't change a thing. You are moderating a community, you cannot always put money in front of what is good for your users. Freedom of speech, provided it is respectful and lawful is a good starting point.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:50 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:50 pm
Posts: 388
Location: Too far away from the water, again.
Laughingman wrote:
You are moderating a community, you cannot always put money in front of what is good for your users.


And this is where it gets tricky. The community needs money to survive. Judging by the ads at the top of my screen right now, the community is supported by Slingshot, Kite Line and the rotating footstrap guys. Without these guys, there is no community. Alienate the paying advertisers, and there is no Kiteforum.

Switch do not support the community that they are trying to exploit. I'm sure that some of the posts are genuine riders sharing the stoke because they love the kites, but the fact that Switch have pretty blatantly tried to use Kiteforum for free advertising creates a problem - Toby has to make a judgment as to what is an advert (posted by Switch directly or by a "team rider" who is obliged to post positive reviews of Switch's product) and what is an honest post from an unaffiliated, genuinely stoked kiter.

Maybe he's going to get it wrong sometimes, but if he does nothing, as some of you are suggesting, then why should Slingshot (or any other brand) pay for banners when they can advertise for free via posts, and why should Kite Line (or any other retailer) subsidise advertising for a company whose direct-marketing strategy cuts out retailers?

And then who pays for your community?


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:18 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:18 am
Posts: 491
Location: Vitoria, Brasil
Mr_Weetabix wrote:
Laughingman wrote:
You are moderating a community, you cannot always put money in front of what is good for your users.


And this is where it gets tricky. The community needs money to survive. Judging by the ads at the top of my screen right now, the community is supported by Slingshot, Kite Line and the rotating footstrap guys. Without these guys, there is no community. Alienate the paying advertisers, and there is no Kiteforum.

Switch do not support the community that they are trying to exploit. I'm sure that some of the posts are genuine riders sharing the stoke because they love the kites, but the fact that Switch have pretty blatantly tried to use Kiteforum for free advertising creates a problem - Toby has to make a judgment as to what is an advert (posted by Switch directly or by a "team rider" who is obliged to post positive reviews of Switch's product) and what is an honest post from an unaffiliated, genuinely stoked kiter.

Maybe he's going to get it wrong sometimes, but if he does nothing, as some of you are suggesting, then why should Slingshot (or any other brand) pay for banners when they can advertise for free via posts, and why should Kite Line (or any other retailer) subsidise advertising for a company whose direct-marketing strategy cuts out retailers?

And then who pays for your community?


Amen!

Laughingman, I know your stuck in front of the computer with no action other then your hand for a few months..... but please back away from the keys as your just rambling now :rollgrin:

Beer was cold and wind was great this morning..... nothing like waking up to a hot coffee and 16ks to start the day off.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:00 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1431
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
I think Toby's existing rules are pretty reasonable. He has to walk a fine line every day that he moderates the forum to seprarate the wheat from the chafe, and it's a fair amount of work on top of everything else. I personally feel that Toby deserves to make money if he spends so much of his time and resources on it - it's his livelihood. And he needs to think for the future as one day he will probably sell the rights to the forum to someone, and he needs to preserve the value of it the best he can. In other words: In the end it's Toby's decision on how to run the forum. I am sure he listens to other opinions, but he does not have to agree with concepts that don't fit his business model.

I think that some "individuals" who are actually paying for advertisement still abuse the forum philisophically by spinning their own threads over and over and over. I mean, how many times can one person respond to one thread subject without it appearing to be completely self-serving? Of course we can all chose not to support that brand or to waste time to read those threads - which is what I do - but it would lend a lot of credibility to some of these individuals if they actually contributed content to subject other than only about their own kite brand. To me it comes off as being really egotistical, especially when it gets to the point about bragging about their success and personal popularity, and it's NOT consistent with the "stoke factor" they are hoping to be credited with....just my opinion.

As for funding the forum - I am curious - how many members would be willing to pay $25 to-$50/year for the "privelage" of using the forum? Perhaps a subscribership would allow Toby to completely eliminate any commercial advertising...or create a dedicated forum group for manufacturers and their reps - and the various competing parties can bang away at it on their own sub-forum (and non-commercial participants welcome to the game as well).

Oddly enought it will probably be the same people who complain about commercial invasion who would complain about a subscription fee. Most people spend more than $25/week at the pub, so $25 or $50/year is nothing. I'd be happy to pay a small annual subscription if this were the case, since Toby has already demonstrated a good track record in general for the past 10+ years. One thing is for sure - you cannot make everyone happy all of the time.

The important thing in a revised forum format would be that the forum creates enough separation between the normal day-to-day members and subject matter and the manufacturer threads. I'm not sure if this is just creating more work for Toby or if it might improve the situation.

Just throwing out ideas...but again, this is Toby's decision...and the forum is NOT a democracy. I am actually happy with the way things are. Some people seem to get so razzled by certain threads or forum policies - why not just avoid reading what you don't like, find another forum, or turn your computer off and have a beverage?


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:26 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:24 pm
Posts: 389
Location: Epic affiliation, Northern Australia
Seriously, bad business decision for any kiteboarding company not to support kiteforum via paying for advertising banners.

$900 euros is not much for the amount of world exposure you would get.

How many kites would it take to sell to recoup that cost?

Toby would be making a mint and living the dream. But good on him with originally coming up with the idea and for all the hard work setting it up and maintaining it.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:47 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:49 am
Posts: 1082
Location: shallow sea
robertovillate wrote:
I think Toby's existing rules are pretty reasonable. He has to walk a fine line every day that he moderates the forum to seprarate the wheat from the chafe, and it's a fair amount of work on top of everything else. I personally feel that Toby deserves to make money if he spends so much of his time and resources on it - it's his livelihood. And he needs to think for the future as one day he will probably sell the rights to the forum to someone, and he needs to preserve the value of it the best he can. In other words: In the end it's Toby's decision on how to run the forum. I am sure he listens to other opinions, but he does not have to agree with concepts that don't fit his business model.

well, i'm sure his business is not easy too and i'm far from trying to "deplete Toby's travel fund"(q.Laughingman), but he has to understand that this is the two way road

robertovillate wrote:
I think that some "individuals" who are actually paying for advertisement still abuse the forum philisophically by spinning their own threads over and over and over. I mean, how many times can one person respond to one thread subject without it appearing to be completely self-serving? Of course we can all chose not to support that brand or to waste time to read those threads - which is what I do - but it would lend a lot of credibility to some of these individuals if they actually contributed content to subject other than only about their own kite brand. To me it comes off as being really egotistical, especially when it gets to the point about bragging about their success and personal popularity, and it's NOT consistent with the "stoke factor" they are hoping to be credited with....just my opinion.

yes, there are idiots all over the world spread pretty much evenly. so no guarantee for any brand their pimp starts meaningless thread about the "greatness" of his kite

robertovillate wrote:
As for funding the forum - I am curious - how many members would be willing to pay $25 to-$50/year for the "privelage" of using the forum? Perhaps a subscribership would allow Toby to completely eliminate any commercial advertising...or create a dedicated forum group for manufacturers and their reps - and the various competing parties can bang away at it on their own sub-forum (and non-commercial participants welcome to the game as well).

Oddly enought it will probably be the same people who complain about commercial invasion who would complain about a subscription fee. Most people spend more than $25/week at the pub, so $25 or $50/year is nothing. I'd be happy to pay a small annual subscription if this were the case, since Toby has already demonstrated a good track record in general for the past 10+ years. One thing is for sure - you cannot make everyone happy all of the time.

how about i'm already paying twice for reading this forum? first time when i see the open publicity, the banners and payed publicity, and then second time when dozens of affiliated forum users trying to manipulate the opinion?
"forum" is something where freedom of expressions exists by definition, isn't it?
how kf would be different from magazines where only freedom of advertising exists?
now, that is why i don't by kite magazines - i don't want to pay twice and not to be able to express my opinion, first you pay for the magazine paper with beautiful pictures, and second for the payed articles. so, absolutely no objectivity!

so, any independent and objective forum or magazine should be free of charge for users, with advertising and with the possibility of affiliated users make their job.
or, it could be free of ads subscription forum with the payments, but still you'll never eliminate the pimps, and that leads to loss of users for sure.

robertovillate wrote:
The important thing in a revised forum format would be that the forum creates enough separation between the normal day-to-day members and subject matter and the manufacturer threads. I'm not sure if this is just creating more work for Toby or if it might improve the situation.
Just throwing out ideas...but again, this is Toby's decision...and the forum is NOT a democracy. I am actually happy with the way things are. Some people seem to get so razzled by certain threads or forum policies - why not just avoid reading what you don't like, find another forum, or turn your computer off and have a beverage?

yeah, not the democracy, but it should be the freedom of speech in here certainly.

for a short time i was a member of this community i've seen several users disappointed in this forum publicly for the different reasons. common for those reasons was intolerance.

so, what are we registered for here? just to be subjects for marketing manipulations or really help the community to overcome FAQ and exchange the knowledge?


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:25 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:35 pm
Posts: 235
robertovillate wrote:
Perhaps a subscribership would allow Toby to completely eliminate any commercial advertising...o

You can eliminate all of those ads by yourself. Just install Adblock+ (firefox plugin) and all banners are gone. :wink:

But back2topic:

I'm with Toby on this one: If Switch doesn't want to pay for ads that's fine but they can't expect Toby to put their news/reviews here for free. Maybe I'm wrong but the last time I looked on their website they weren't selling their kites for free right? They want to make money and so does Toby and if they want his help they should pay for that.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:09 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:49 am
Posts: 1082
Location: shallow sea
Konza wrote:
I'm with Toby on this one: If Switch doesn't want to pay for ads that's fine but they can't expect Toby to put their news/reviews here for free. Maybe I'm wrong but the last time I looked on their website they weren't selling their kites for free right? They want to make money and so does Toby and if they want his help they should pay for that.


so, Konza, once LIQUID FORCE paid for banner all of its pimps have free will to spread the "wisdom" here for ever? don't you think it alienates the users who are not in the white boots and heavy and high rocker boards? heavy kites also not are the favorites. not every kf user live and kite at the Gorge.

i can delete the ad banners (it is not my objective), but i can not delete covered ads spread by users like you


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Why are posts about Switch kites deleted? Shame on you T
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:06 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1431
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
eree wrote:
how about i'm already paying twice for reading this forum? first time when i see the open publicity, the banners and payed publicity, and then second time when dozens of affiliated forum users trying to manipulate the opinion?
"forum" is something where freedom of expressions exists by definition, isn't it?
how kf would be different from magazines where only freedom of advertising exists?
now, that is why i don't by kite magazines - i don't want to pay twice and not to be able to express my opinion, first you pay for the magazine paper with beautiful pictures, and second for the payed articles. so, absolutely no objectivity!

so, any independent and objective forum or magazine should be free of charge for users, with advertising and with the possibility of affiliated users make their job.
or, it could be free of ads subscription forum with the payments, but still you'll never eliminate the pimps, and that leads to loss of users for sure.


....yeah, not the democracy, but it should be the freedom of speech in here certainly.

for a short time i was a member of this community i've seen several users disappointed in this forum publicly for the different reasons. common for those reasons was intolerance.

so, what are we registered for here? just to be subjects for marketing manipulations or really help the community to overcome FAQ and exchange the knowledge?


I'm not exactly sure where you live (shallow sea - where is that?) but where I live and every place I have been in my life "paying for something" usually means that I give someone money for their goods or services/or they give me money for my goods and services. So I don't understand if you are complaining about "paying" to read the forum.

While in many ways I imagine that Toby does his work "from his heart", but he has to "pay" his bills too, including the direct cost of running the forum (which is arguably the best and most popular forum in the world), and compensating himself for the time he could otherwise be working.

Advertising is what most legitimate business people would consider a "cost of doing business". Some extremely successful Fortune 500 companies spend 25% of their budget on advertising...and apparently it works because they are making billions of dollars. When a new small product comes into the kitesurfing market Toby has been very generous with allowing some initial exposure...but as a business grows and becomes successful "marketing" becomes a huge part of their plan.

As I said before some people have taken advantage of Toby's leniency in this regard and I don't blame him for putting his foot down. I think that in the early days Toby provided this forum at his own expense and risk - that's called an "investment". Again, if he felt he could rely on the "generosity" of the forum members to support him he might not need to take advertising dollars. But (no offence to my fellow kiters intended) sailors, kiters, sailboarders...we are the biggest cheapskates in the world when it comes to sport participants. So asking for commercial members to spend under 1000 eu/year is nothing.

So aside from this forum NOT being a democracy, it's also NOT a "charity". And when it comes to "freedom of speech" I think it's unfair to accuse Toby of this when there have been threads discussing dozens, if not hundreds, of products and indivdual services. If you want to know something about losing your freedom of speech try existing in Syria, China, Burma, or Iran.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group