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I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

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andylc
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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby andylc » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:41 pm

Flysurfer standard lines on their Airstyle bar are 300kg front 200kg rear. Please don't try and tell me this is not intended for jumping!

Matteo V
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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby Matteo V » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:43 pm

andylc wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:41 pm
Flysurfer standard lines on their Airstyle bar are 300kg front 200kg rear. Please don't try and tell me this is not intended for jumping!
No, the manufacture (Flysurfer) only says that 160kg lines are not recommended for jumping.


Apparently 2 manufactures experienced kite designers have given us a lead on the break line for jumping. 1 manufacture (Ozone) clearly does see a benefit to heavier lines in standard use bars (500kg front, 300kg rear), This would be the minimum evidence that the break between jumping and not jumping is somewhere below 200kg rear lines, and there is benefit to having 300kg rear lines. But that is only if you give credibility to the kite/bar designers at Ozone and Flysurfer. (....pssssst, I do)

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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:14 pm

I've run 1.1mm SK99 dyneema (267 daN break strength) on both my front and rear lines for a season, large foil kites and hydrofoil, not much jumping. No issues so far, but my philosophy on line strength is very Ivan Drago because I keep a spool of bulk line at home and know how to do a Brummel lock. The advantage of having such wildly thin lines is a no-brainer to me, the kite feels instantly better compared to stock manufacturer lines.

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andylc
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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby andylc » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:22 pm

Difference between 160kg and 200kg back lines is pretty minimal...
I think I would be more nervous if I was a chunky f***er - at 65kg I'm pretty happy with either 300/200 lines for my Flysurfer or 500/300 for my LEIs.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:36 pm

For my 'extremist light wind' configuration (on my 15m and 18 m kite, 60kg rider), I use 70 kg rearlines ; clearly it is only adapted to light wind hydrofoil on foil kite without jumps nor unhooking, but it works. You can save some 100 gr , you gain some drag , but above all better control of the kite thanks to less rear lines curvature which is quite important on depowered a foilkite (even if the elasticity will increase a bit and be detrimential to the control).

On big kite you have less dynamic/peak effects (slow loops, progressive line retensions, slower crashes if any) so you can risk thinner rear lines IMO.

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downunder
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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby downunder » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:37 am

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:07 pm

In your rage to frame me as a "Mr. knowitall", you have again demonstrated your inability to see what is right in front of you. The lower limit has been established, though it is not solid number. At 160kg, you are definitely good to go with regular replacement of the lines and NO JUMPING. At 200kg, you are recommended to replace after 100hrs and still shy away from high loading, definitely no wakestyle or beginner usage/crashes. For regular kiteboarding usage, jumping, trying new things that result in crashes, and long wear life, go up to 250-300kg minimum on you back lines. I am afraid more clarity on this issue is not possible.

I am not trying to berate you because I very much appreciate your post. It adds discussion and gives kiters an idea of the mentalities/ideas out there. So thanks and keep posting.

You are again patronizing, however with a bit of 'toned' response, which is slightly better. But still not polite enough. It can be learned, not to worry.

I've asked a simple question: " I think, the less bar pressure, the less weight we pulling! But how much really?"

It's simple really, you know or you don't know the answer. I'm still not convinced that anyone knows the answer. However, it does look like some people at least tried and succeeded with quite thin lines. Good on them.

You Matt can at least show appropriation for this ppl coz they are pushing the boundaries in this sport. Not you I'm afraid, you just follow (apologies if not, but that's how it sounds).


NO JUMPING means NOTHING in my books. By that token Nico Parlier would be long dead with his jumps I witnessed. I would be long dead since jumping in super shallow water with 0.8mm thin back lines.

It's a general safety advice not taking into account the rider ability AND weight, a 'blanket rule' for the general kiting community. And fair enough. Up to you to follow or not.

The perception of 'pulling weight' with the bar is wrong when I think of it:

- same rider, high pressure on the bar. Is he/she pulling more weight on the bar?
- same rider, light bar pressure would indicate LESS weight?! How? The rider is the same?

So no, the options are not in front of me. I can't just rock up into the shop and buy the bar with the lines for my weight. This is what industry is offering, 'one size fits all'. Buy the bar for 30kg kid off the shelf, if you can.

How' that?

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downunder
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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby downunder » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:55 am

andylc wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:22 pm
Difference between 160kg and 200kg back lines is pretty minimal...
I think I would be more nervous if I was a chunky f***er - at 65kg I'm pretty happy with either 300/200 lines for my Flysurfer or 500/300 for my LEIs.
Umm,

that 20% difference, right? ;) Huge difference. But you're right, savings in lines weight is minimal.

This post is about WHY we're running 200/300kg back lines when nowhere near that when riding.

If we follow the same rule, the LE bladder should accept 100psi to be on the safe side ;)

Imagine a bladder/fabric for 100psi?

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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby edt » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:08 am

If you race, the line width is a significant part of the drag of your kite, so you want to minimize the diameter of the lines and that means using the weakest lines that still hold. Racers will be able to configure their line set exactly to spec. For free riding, free style, wave riding, I don't see why you need the super thin lines as it just means you have to replace them more often, but if you want to do it, I don't see a problem going down to quite thin lines though of course, you can't buy them off the shelf. If you weigh less then sure you don't need as thick lines but I don't see the downside using the thicker lines, unless you are racing.

andylc
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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby andylc » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:47 am

Flysurfer must feel that thinner lines are worthwhile for reduced drag and better handling, and also safe for all types of riding, since their standard lines are the same spec as Ozone race lines. I don’t think there is anywhere on their website which suggests the lines are expected to have a shorter life.

Matteo V
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Re: I need convincing too:) Bar back lines!

Postby Matteo V » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:34 pm

Really quick, and I'll address the rest of your post directed at me later:

Do you understand the concept of wear over time vs breaking strength. Specifically the example of 200kg lines worn to 50% of their original strength yield 100kg breaking strength, and 300kg lines worn to 50% of their original strength yield 150kg breaking strength?

Take that down to internal abrasion at a sleeved loop - 200kg lines worn to 20% of their original strength yield 20kg breaking strength, and 300kg lines worn to 20% of their original strength yield 30kg breaking strength.

I think I do "know" you and your are thinking "that is only a 10kg difference". But that is 1/3rd more life you get out of those lines. That is the answer to your question. I feel I am trying to simplify this again for you, and you obviously are smart enough to understand it, but you apparently do now want to accept it. This is the reason why kite lines come in the sizes they do, along with that list that you keep ignoring. The answer to your question, again, is right in front of you.

My question to you is, 'why ask a question here if you are not going to accept that your preconceived notions are going to be challenged?' This forum works to further your knowledge by challenging it, not reinforce your religiously held beliefs.

Here is a post where I had my preconceived notions challenged, and changed. And just to note, I was grasping at straws just like you, before I accepted the logic, reasoning, and evidence that I was wrong. Take a read, it is a good thread.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2396622


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