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Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:54 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:06 am
Nice feedback.
Did you had to change the AoA of the main wing compared to with a rear wing ? What is the impact on low wind planning limit ?

I would think the difference is not noticeable !

The stabilizer got so little downlift, and today most use it with very little so it still stabilizes - but does not make the foil pop "up" like on planes or beginner foils with lower (lower = more down lift) stabilizer AOA.

For the same reason the planing limit will not really be changed either - but you get less drag and more performance if you can ride sufficiently steady, no doubt :thumb:

I did not notice any difference when I rode stabless on mine - but Horst will be able to answer this better of course :D

8)

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby revhed » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:10 pm

Nice flying man! :thumb:
I find it interesting your fore aft stance seems almost the same as if you used a stab.
It even looks like the center of lift is in front of the L E?
R H
I posted years ago that I thought mono wing KBHFs would come along but thought "special" design would be needed, but looks like this master does just fine with out!

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:36 pm

Hi everybody and thanks for the interest,

@revhed:
I was surprised myself that even the high AR (think about AR 7) old "Aspect 3.0" wing now worked pretty well, as I tried it an year ago and thought it is just to hard.
I was thinking and discussing about ideal monowings with people like kite designers, not being noobs like my in hydrodynamic. But on the end the result was always:

Easy is:
big low AR wings as for example the levitaz cruizer, which is the easiest I know. All other ideas as sweeped back wings or high offset towards wing tips, can be helpful for normal airplanes, paragliders, kites ... but potentialy have no relevant effect if balance point is not about 1 time below wing span as on paragliders, but about 4 times above wing!
So there is maybe just human brains regulation capability and processor speed to count on :D AND, not to forget: to make the situation for its bodies and muscles as compfortable as possible:

Stance and AoA:
@Regis-de-giens:
AoA is not changeable for Levitaz system, but an pretty important point. First my stance is with mono strut full in front, front screw of back strap directly over struts trailing edge, with moderate stance. With stabi strut about 3 cm more to the back which should be roundabout the compensation of pressure point movement with and without stabi. Just finding this and maybe a bit experience enlarged my regular speed range significant, as if you compare this one with now often above 30 km/h with older tracks shown
Monofoil-Freeride-Freestyle-Tour.jpg
Track was first 8 km upwind than about 15 km downwind, than upwind again and freestyle on the end, see track picture at:
http://kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=19 ... 3&start=60

But even more important is to have a angle of actually calculating with 3 degrees set not inbetween wing and strut, but inbetween stance (upper deck) and boards lower deck, as also today I see many racers use it for a more compfortable riding position respecting balanced load through both legs under high load. While my load is normaly not so high, it is even more important to have both legs close to straight in the most challenging "high speed" moments at around 33 km/h to be able to push this limit further.

About lowering drag and low wind planning limit:
I believe that I was even able to feel the difference of the new reinforced levitaz strut bases-wing-connection compared to the old with smaller frontal area (around 1 cm² difference maybe), why I kept the old weaker struts. The experience with my old race foil, I was riding with fun for two days, once again was like: Oh, it is so more draggy and needs so much more kite power to get going and difficutly to reach high angles against the wind in the low end. ... But I don't have any real numbers to show, just a few tracks with high upwind angles which may show that it is not just a feeling.

But to maybe get clear values, I have set up this topic to ask for them, if somebody else can give it to us:

http://kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2399994

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:43 am

Anything better than being a kiter and having a Monofoil to ride?


Having TWO Monofoils :rollgrin: ……… and as they are monos, they will still fit more easily into your car trunk as one stabi foil :P
Kitejunkie-Monofoils.jpg
The big high AR is more experimental, than for all day use and also less showing the core idea of monofoiling, which is riding save with out pointy wing tips. But having riden this and others new monos a few times I learned:

Even high AR wings are rideable,
but it is still the advise to never try to start with them monofoiling, as learning will be pretty close to impossible. But if experienced and once you made the start it is impressive how "easy" and "stable" also these wings can be. In some ways they are even more gentle as lower surface means less agressiv lift, if pitch is to high for a moment. Also speed window was wide enough to easily do 360, flying landings, flying tacks, etc.

But I still expect speed window in contrast to stabi foils will still be better on the low AR wings.
Kitejunkie-Monofoil-Speed-Window.jpg
Kitejunkie-Monofoil-Speed-Window.jpg (53.33 KiB) Viewed 121 times
Lessons learned, also for normal stabi foiling:

I am now sure also with a mono you can go beyound 40 km/h, so even faster than many beginner stabi foils, as with the small one I had serveral uncounted spikes over 40 km/h and serious values till 38 km/h.
I think I was wrong, that the personal boarder is the brain and reaction time, I now think, it is much more about a good board setting:
In my experience similar as also for stabi foils, Vmax is very much about a compfortable riding position with both legs nearly straight at the highest speed.
As with any foil and especially low AR foils you have to reduce pitch a lot to keep the higher current causing more lift at the constant level of your weight pushing against. So the faster you go, the more the nose comes down.
If you start to have a uncompfortable position at your personal top speed with your back leg angled hard this will cause the lack of control that will lead to a wipe out, there is not to much to do against by only using a foot positon more back or a strut more to front.

What you have to do is shiming inbetween strut and wing or as I did with a plate inbetween strut and board. Both is the same as long you additionally compansate foot or strut position.

If doing so the only question is how much shimming: I am at 2,5° actually, depending on board and its angle inbetween lower and upper deck, loking to find the best compromise inbetween a good high speed and low speed shim as if exaggerating with the shim you may start to have an uncompfortable low or normal speed position with an angled front leg. On the other hand by shimming you will also influence your mean compfortable cruizing speed.

So don't set up your body position and style to your foilboard, but the other way around. :wink:


… and last about going back to stabi foils:
In the last time I used stabi foils for close to 10 days, especially as I wanted to redo the nice 360 galactical manouver and so I also learned again to ride stabi foils :-? , which was a bit hard at the beginning :oops: and my jibes are maybe still better on the mono :) … but apart from galactical, sitting and for sure the canery man, I don't miss anymore anything on the mono and therefore will keep one stabi, as I kept my twintip for many years without using it. But there is no doupt that I will never go back apart for a short occasion.

Saying this, I still just want to motivate all experiended foil kiter to think about:
Twintip -> Directional -> Stabifoil -> Monofoil …. could be the way to go,
if you start being tired of foiling. :bye:


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