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do you want a license for kitesurfing?
yes 35%  35%  [ 44 ]
no 53%  53%  [ 66 ]
not sure 11%  11%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 124
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:16 pm 
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Ideally YES.
Practically NO.

YES, I would like to help keeping this sport as safe as possible for me and for the surounding people (don't give a f.. if someone wants to suicide HIMSELF without affecting others).

NO, I can't see a legal way to impose it.
Like what ?
pay a salary to a kitesurf inspector that will check your license??(forget the police)
Who has the right/qualifaction to nominate such an inspector?
Who will be entitled to submit a license?
Do you need to renovate the license every year, two, five...?
Do you need a photo print on the licence plus an additional ID to prove that is yours?
Currently kitesurfing is not formally even considered as a sport in many countries (anyone?)

Unfortunately too many issues to my consideration....

Bottom line: NO
Who said life is fair? :-?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:50 am 
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Quote:
NO, I can't see a legal way to impose it...


So just as a hypothetical, let's say I started a non-profit organization and established what I felt were reasonable safety guidelines and competency tasks. It's not a legal thing. You don't have to get a rating from my organization. But if you want to, it'll cost you $50/year, and you'll get one million bucks of liability insurance. Some sites wouldn't give a crap about my silly organization. Others might recognize its ratings and allow kiters only if they are rated and insured through it - right? No need to impose anything legally.

Are you saying no one should be allowed to start such an organization?

Quote:
Who has the right/qualifaction to nominate such an inspector?


Anyone that wants. If the organization got enough momentum, and demonstrated kiters were earnestly trying to police themselves, some site owners/bureucrats would recognize the organization. If not - perhaps they wouldn't.

Quote:
Do you need a photo print on the licence plus an additional ID to prove that is yours?


In hang gliding it's just a sticker (and a membership card). No photo. Works fine.


Quote:
Who said life is fair?


No one that I can recall. Is this a new thread?

RC


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:01 am 
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spork wrote:

Quote:
So just as a hypothetical, let's say I started a non-profit organization and established what I felt were reasonable safety guidelines and competency tasks. It's not a legal thing. You don't have to get a rating from my organization. But if you want to, it'll cost you $50/year, and you'll get one million bucks of liability insurance.
Some sites wouldn't give a crap about my silly organization. Others might recognize its ratings and allow kiters only if they are rated and insured through it - right? No need to impose anything legally.


The insurance is a different topic. I have double insurance, I declared to my insurance company that I'm kitsurfing and want the insurance to cover it. No problem. Regarding 3rd parties, I have the IKO insurance. Good thing. But insurance companies can/will submit it to anybody that is willing to pay (it's just business).

Quote:
Are you saying no one should be allowed to start such an organization?

I didn't say that.

I will affiliate to such an organizacion if I'll get any benefit out of it (as a matter of fact I did, but through my free will).

Quote:
Quote:
Who has the right/qualifaction to nominate such an inspector?

Anyone that wants. If the organization got enough momentum, and demonstrated kiters were earnestly trying to police themselves, some site owners/bureucrats would recognize the organization. If not - perhaps they wouldn't.


Site owner can, bureaucrats can't (as far as I can avoid it).
In many places around the world the beaches are public, and should be kept that way. Moreover, we kiters should respect the right of others to enjoy the beacehs without fear. It can't be imposed.
The message that I want to pass is that you can't impose people to behave in a certain way. e.g. look a the behaviour of the drivers, ......
we have a license. Is it a certificate for good driving behaviour? Look at the statistics.

Quote:
In hang gliding it's just a sticker (and a membership card). No photo. Works fine.

Who is the qualified inspector that checks after your sticker?
What about windsurfing ?

Quote:
Quote:
Who said life is fair?

No one that I can recall. Is this a new thread?

RC

May be you're right in this one. Wrong expression.
What would you say when your subjective feeling doesn't match your rational conclusions?

I'll change a bit the poll to express myself better:

COMPULSIVE LICENSE : NO
FREE WILL ASSOCIATION : YES (and get more benefits)

------------------------------------------
RIDE FREE AS A SWALLOW


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:23 pm 
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Vote No.

The best way to focus on safety problems is to address safety systems and not by regulations that consume resources. I think what we are all trying to avoid is regulating our sport in the first place. Keep it simple where we can. Understanding that certain areas may need crowd control or preventative regulations before the authorities stand in… these regs should be accomplished on a regional basis, as people, tolerances and issues are different everywhere you go in your city, country, world.

I have a hard time believing that after the inevitable kite/bystander accident that anyone besides the kiters would care if the person was licensed or not, so I don’t believing licensing would be much help there.

Understanding that the initial intent of this post was to keep those who do not know how to keep themselves safe, safe and others safe, think about being ceratodus and striving to educate everyone around you while you are on the beach you shouldn’t be there long anyway (i.e., the new kiter, the bystander walking over your lines) I’ll thank you for it when I see you. We don’t play on the beach we play in the water.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:48 pm 
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Quote:
Site owner can, bureaucrats can't (as far as I can avoid it).


In hang gliding we frequently fly from public lands. In those cases the bureucrats are the ones that require we have insurance and ratings through USHGA. We don't have a "license" in the sense of a driver's license. Our rating/insurance is not a legal requirement. It is however a requirement for flying from these sites and keeping them open. I don't think we could get a ticket or get arrested for flying these sites without the proper rating. However, if we fail to regulate ourselves (i.e. make sure our fellow pilots have the ratings and follow the rules), the site would be shut down (which happens too often in any case).

Quote:
In many places around the world the beaches are public, and should be kept that way.


I agree. However, the government has the job of regulating the use of the beach to insure no group unfairly precludes the rights of others. They clearly can, and do, shut down beaches to kiting in many places. This hypothetical organization is intended as a way to convince them not to.


Quote:
e.g. look a the behaviour of the drivers, ......
we have a license. Is it a certificate for good driving behaviour? Look at the statistics.


Too many drivers, too few cops (don't get me wrong, I personally don't care for cops). The object is to police ourself so we don't end up with kite-cops.

Quote:
Who is the qualified inspector that checks after your sticker?


Every "rated" rider that doesn't want to lose the site. A current sticker would have to be displayed on your helmet, kitepants, thong... If someone tried to ride a "regulated" site without one you don't launch him, and you don't let him launch. Hang gliding in the U.S. doesn't require a license, but I dare you to try and launch at a requlated site without a current sticker.

Quote:
What about windsurfing ?


The pig-stickers are harmless - aren't they? :o

RC


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:16 pm 
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How many times have participants successfully voted across an activity to require certification? Say in diving, hang gliding, paragliding, power airplane operation, boat operation, automobiles ... this could go on for quite a while.

Has it ever happened? It might have but I suspect not.

So, who ends up requiring certification? Government in some cases but in many others, INSURANCE COMPANIES. Most would prefer not to have government involved in this, myself included.

This insurance companies in an effort to control losses stated, if you want valid liability coverage Mr. Businessman, you will verify certification before doing certain types of trade with participants.

I am impressed that so many people support the creation of certification. Still, I suspect that it will be government and insurance companies that act to bring certification requirements into being, if they can be bothered. Alternatively, we can always pride ourselves on sticking to principles while losing access. We are continuing to lose access in various parts of the world after all. It is too bad that insurance for kiteboarding is fairly limited particularly in the Americas, UK, Oz, etc.. It doesn't leave a lot of options. "Sticking to principles" seems to roundly torpedo self-enforcement often enough. People frequently confuse the privilege to ride with the badly mistaken belief that it is a statutory right. When you get down to it, when people say "I gotta right ..." the only right they have in things may be to be banned.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:33 am 
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Rick, you are quite right .
For example, you can get insurance as an instructor through IKO (worldwide). You can get insurance through IKO as a kiter (worldwide), but you need your level three certification to get it.
This will probably be more and more the case, as our discipline gets more structured.
Nico


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:38 am 
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I think the real question is who will inforce this? The other question is this going to make the sport better in any way?

Honestly, you can have all the rules and regulations that you want but if they are not enforced what difference will it make..


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:32 pm 
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Larpy the Pope should enforce the license requirements of course. He could delegate responsibility through his cardinals to your local parish priest. Imagine next time this old clown in a dress comes up to you down the beach and starts fiddling around under your harness looking for you license. Better leave the kids at home.

Near Brisbane there is a place at Point Wello where the Council made some fukced up rule that meant it was OK to kite there but you couldn't set your lines up above the high tide mark. Bit rough you might think.

Well when the Council inspector turns up the locals just couldn't go to their cars until he had left otherwise he would find out who they were through their car rego.

The Council officer asked at least one of them what his name was. Lou Wainman got quite a few fines which are down to the Point Wello locals. Poor Lou might have a hard time when he next comes to Australia for all those old unpaid fines.

Only a million euros public liability insurance. Won't get you too far in the Australian courts if you really maim someone. Might cover your legal costs if your lucky.

A great big FUKC NO from me.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:51 pm 
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I think it's time for another poll. Here's the question:

At all the sites that aren't in danger of closure nothing changes. No ratings required. No enforcement. No insurance.

At the sites in danger of closure you have a choice: get banned, or continue to kite there through insurance, ratings, and self-policing.

Is anyone actually against that???

RC


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