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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:56 pm 
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jrobson wrote:
Lovely that you use the Focus hatch, I am buying the new model next month(nice packing space for all the gear). Anyway, when looking for a new car I went and test drove a few models from different manufacturers and also spoke to alot of people who have tried a few different models in the same range... Every single person agreed that the Focus is indeed the car that offers most value for money and has a better drive and handling than all the other competing models from other manufacturers, in a league of it's own. Looking at the sales figures though shows a different story, 2nd place, VW outsells it by about 15%, and this was in the launch month when the Focus was suppose to come out strong. So this month and next VW will problably outsell it by 20-30%. On discussing with some industry insiders the general idea is that because VW has a better history here compared to Ford than in some other countries, they will continue to outsell, even though the Focus is cheaper and performs better. And is alot more car for your money.


I got a great deal on the Ford ZX5 cause my brother worked for Ford. The car is awesome... especially if you can a hold of the 2.3L engine instead of the 2.0L. Otherwise... look at the Mazda3... the Mazda P5 was really good too. FYI - Ford is offering employee level discount until early July, so check out the discount before you buy.

Quote:
People simply don't like change.


I disagree... at lot of people swap to Best over the last year an a half, mostly experienced kiters... so don't tell me people keep their heads in the mud.

Same goes for Hellfish... people aren't lineup because G-ball say 13m powered in 6knts... people are lineup because of the kite is
a) quickest turning kite
b) half the weight and package size of comparable LEI
c) speed oriented kite with improved hang time

Quote:
Now it is all about turning speed, if the next foil comes out and turns as fast as a LEI would everyone switch... No.


Of course they will... people want a better product, period. No one likes to pump a kite okay... but we don't like tangled bridles either... PL was a compromise of both, made believers out of Kiwis, but nowhere else.

The fact that HF is so hot tells you how much a premium you can command if you simply produce a REAL improvement. Don't see why this is so hard to believe.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:06 pm 
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mark van haze wrote:
@vietkiter try and sell kites to guys you kite with everyday. Youll see how far you can get with bullshit claims. And I do believe theres a line between bullshit and hype.


Come on dude... I am not trying to defend Gumball... I am trying to tell you that most of us are NOT "ignorant trolls"... there is not enough MVHs to protect us from the market oriented world we live in...

Seriously, do you think any one with a decent education don't get a kick out of the wannabe technical writers in kiteboarding magazines... it's comical

I don't see anyone complaining about Jimmy Lewis ads with the skanky chick with the boards... we don't mind it, but we know the boards are damn good too... it's not that hard to separate...

But if you are so offended... stop selling the gear... that what with "real conviction" do... otherwize you're just another televangelist...


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:22 pm 
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We unfortunately don't get the 2.3 over here, 2.0 is the best I can get, I don't like diesel so not bothered about the 2.0TDi... Thing is the car has everything I want. For me the mazda doesn't look as good, and I prefer the interior of the Focus.

Bridle tangles I have not had much issue with myself... I've had my kite tumble accross the wind window and thinking, "oh crap im screwed" only to relaunch spin the bar and the lines unwind with no tangles... I am not saying it doesn't happen, just saying it is less of concern to me than a puncture for instance... LEI users will be quick to point out that punctures aren't problems either, or maybe they are.

HF hangtime is compared to the psycho2 foil of the same size, so not bad, but the speed foil apparently has way better hangtime 10m is compared to 13m ps2 easily, and one test report was very bold to say hangtime is as good as the 17m ps2. Not sure I buy into that. Foils pack up small-ish as well, but since you get a nice range you don't need as many with you on trips either... So you can trade this all off for some turning speed, but to be honest, I don't know what I am going to do with alot of turning speed either... my 2004 foils turn plenty fast enough for me so I'm happy as is, 2005 foils on the way though, but not for faster turning.

The biggest thing for me is I fly on land and not at a windy place either with really gusty/turbulent conditions, LEI won't work. But even if it did, I problably wouldn't bother, the LEI's I've seen didn't look to turn faster than my foils honestly, but can't say what model's/sizes they were or rider skills or any other comparison so don't read anything into that. Yes the Proto HF turns super quick in the vids but there is no real garuntee on the long term reliability of the material, I still find it funny to believe that suddenly this company was able to fix all their problems they've had for years... And that thing sure is damn expensive.

EDIT: I am sure someone is gonna go nuts because I mentioned the unholy word "land" in the post. But for me it's about kites, I always have and always will like kites, it is not so much to be a uber leet kitesurfer or another way to enjoy water, I enjoy kites and going on water is another great way to enjoy kites even more. I am sure for alot of people it is the other way around, they enjoy the water and the kites are just another way to go out on the water.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:33 pm 
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jrobson wrote:
Yes the Proto HF turns super quick in the vids but there is no real garuntee on the long term reliability of the material


Best gives 100%+ guarantee... tell me a kite you bought that didn't have risk...

Can you really return you car if you didn't like it... people seem to complain way too much without offering a better alternative.

Quote:
I still find it funny to believe that suddenly this company was able to fix all their problems they've had for years... And that thing sure is damn expensive.


I really think it has less to do with issues with Cuben than issues of cost... remember how expensive kites were before Best came along... what manufacturer would be crazy enough to use a much more expensive material...

It's funny that people say the kite is expensive... but it costs the same at other brands' ripoff-da-con kites... so I not sure the logic of saying HF is expensive...

Just to tie to this thread... if FS produces the speed with a super light Cuben... simply the weight savings will easily improve handling... question is at what cost?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:45 pm 
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One important aspect is being overlooked in this "contest".

WAVERIDING

Get those kites in some real surf - pull some bottom turns, let em rip.


GO HELLFISH! :thumb: :thumb:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:45 pm 
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They only give 100% garuntee for 1 month there is no 1 year the kite won't peel garuntee. The FS garuntee is 6month free repair which is way better imo. I also meant it is expensive when you compare it to foils, not to other LEI's... I am not yet 100% sure as the windrange hasn't been tested or given feedback enough, but that might change, but I think I would still have to buy 3 HF's to cover 2 foils. Even if I buy 2 HF's to cover 2 foils, they will still be more expensive.

Here is why I like foils:
No pump
Less weight to carry
Less hassle to self launch or land
Instant relaunch safety system
Lift
Hangtime
Range
6 month repair warranty
Upwind
Land and water use with one kite...
Affordable

These are reasons why I like/prefer my foils, why do you like LEI?
As for material wight, FS kites are already light, very light actually... I'll try and weigh my 13m ps2 this week. Kite only I think it is the same weight as Hellfish, maybe less.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:48 pm 
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jrobson wrote:
why do you like LEI?


Because I kiteSURF on the WATER...

Comeon gumball lets see some pwnage!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:51 pm 
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selassie wrote:
jrobson wrote:
why do you like LEI?


Because I kiteSURF on the WATER...

Comeon gumball lets see some pwnage!!!!!!

I was speaking to Vietkiter. But thanks, you rock REET KITESURFER. :bye:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:45 pm 
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Selassie:
Quote:
Because I kiteSURF on the WATER...


Well, so do I... and I use foils. As does a lot of people around here... on WATER.
Still no LEI I've seen (no matter if it is Recon 1 or 2, 5:th Element etc) have relaunched as easily or fast as my FS kites. Also I haven't found any other kite that is so easy and safe to boat/drift-launch.

Selassie, why don't you go and try a modern Flysurfer? I think you will find that the foils have evolved a *lot* since you (or your friends) had a go on them the last time.

I can't really see why "LEI-people" seldom wants to try a different concept whereas I, as a "foil-person", happily tries every new kite (LEI, PL, foil) I can get my hands on.
And yes, I will gladly try the Hellfish if I get a chance. It will be very interesting to compare it to my SPEED 10 that I will get on monday. Ssscchhweeet. 8)

About waveriding I'd probably say that neither the Hellfish or the Speed are perfect for that. They are both fast (as in board-fast) kites that don't seem to have a lot of grunt. I think a kite with lower AR that sits a bit further back in the window is better suited for this. Of course the bigger sizes of both the HF and Speed will overcome this by sheer size... but in the smaller sizes I'd say they are not optimal (and again, it is my *guess*... since I haven't tried them yet).

Personally I'll probably continue to take my Extacy 10 out in the waves rather then the Speed... at least that is my feeling before I've tried the Speed (or the HF). BTW, the Extacy is *really* nice for waveriding.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:09 pm 
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jrobson wrote:
The FS garuntee is 6month free repair which is way better imo.


So where do you have to send this baby to get warranty service. Is it really valuable or is it just marketing. I have a feeling it's like those LEI repair warranty.

Quote:
Here is why I like foils:
Instant relaunch safety system
Land and water use with one kite...
Affordable


Honestly I don't understand why foils claim to be easier to relaunch... if it's flat in the water... it will quickly get soak... am I missing something... I keep hearing a few people advocate that foils are easier to relaunch, but I think this is one of the major negative perception of foil as the reason people gravitate to LEIs... are there any instructor out there teaching newbies on big foils... if relaunch is easier... well should newbies graduate from small foils to big ones... the real world observations seem contrary to foil's proponent claims.

Foils cost more than LEIs upfront. Perhaps foils last longer...

I do agree if you use it on land a lot... foils are better all around than LEIs.

As to why I choose LEIs... foils cost more and don't seem to offer much advantages on my chosen medium... water... at one time I thought about getting a big foil because I believe large foil have a natural light wind cruising advantage... but at the end of the day... it was cost... I love my SS B3 for freak winds/big boards... almost bought a large foil for snow... but realized I am mostly on water... I think I am typical of LEI people.

Look, with all the publicity FS is getting now, hopefully that will lead to more volume... diversity is good... I like LEIs because there isn't really a better alternative... but that doesn't mean LEIs as is is that great from an aerodynamic/durability standpoint.


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