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 Post subject: SQ, some questions for you
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:45 am 
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Quote:
re the lack of bridles on the cabrinha, thats probably cos you cant see the pulleys, and also cos that looks like a 7m kite, i'm guessing the bigger they come the more bridled they are.



and it still looks like a copy of a 5 year old kite...


Thats a quote of yours. So are you saying the 2006 Nemi is also a copy of a 5 year old kite seeing they have similar designs.

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goatboy: thats some funny shit, some newby 8 post master telling me to get back to my own forum...

maybe if you'd been kiting long enough to have seen all of the other kites from 5 years ago that were the pro-genitor of this takoon and cabrinha design, then you might know what you were talking about.

check the pictures out son...

maybe then you'll check this for what it is, a way to make a cheaper foil kite without anyone noticing, but without the true aerodynamic beneifts of a twinskin.


and yes we are rolling with the serial kites.


Here you are saying that the original design goes back to previous kites, and yet Best claim its their own idea from "thinking outside the box". So who is lying? You also claim its simply a cheaper foil without anyone noticing? I didn't notice anything like that on the best site either.

Quote:
i'm not bagging it, greg i'm asking a simple question, i cant see the full leach from any of the pictures so i'm interested in how they hold a flat leach.

obviously a curved leach is easier to hold with distributed load than a flat leach is, so i'm genuinely interetesed in how thats been achieved.

hence my question about its shape in flight,you can see the nova is actually quite curved but that cabby picture makes it look as flat as a foil.


Surely if you were experimenting with this shapes so long ago yo would know the answer to this seeing as the picture of the best prototype has a similar bridle?

Quote:
i'm having a hard time figuring how adding bridles is a step forward from the rapture....


And yet you say the best will have a simple bridle so is a simple bridle okay?

Why the questions? Well, very simple, you seem to claim a lot of knowledge about how long the Best guys have been working on this design so I'm asking why you don't have the answers to these questions if your designers are so amazing and you have first hand experience with some of the prototype you have already built and shown on the best website? All of these posts were taken from the Amazing New cabrinha post where you saw fit to comment on the kite although you hadn't seen it or tried it yet. I only got up to page 16 and then gave up with the quotes.

It seems you were really pesimistic about the takoon and nova until best produced something similar and suddenly its an idea best has been working on for a while.

I also notice best still haven't bother to respond to the comment regarding the use of the cabrinha slogan on their website. highly unethical and definitely not gaining them any fans. where do you draw the line? they going to use the takoon user manual and the cabrinha videos to promote their kite?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:50 am 
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Hey Mission Man, wake up and smell the roses. We are living in a post modernist society, there are no original ideas left anymore.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:51 am 
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......ouch! Simon.....right in the kahoonas: :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:02 pm 
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1. read it again, i said it 'looked' like a copy of a 5 year old design, so yes any other kite bearing a similar outline will look the same...

2. i don't believe best said they invented the idea of a flat kite with bridles, what the release said was that we came to our own conclusions based on our analysis of the issues. what do you expect, different laws of gravity and physics for every kite company so that everyone has wildly differing ideas and solutions.

2.a. yeh it's cheaper foil, way less cloth required for the power, once we know the finals of the design the price will be announced, i don't see anyone else queuing up to drop the prices to the same as their lei kites. despite being made out of exactly the same cloth and using the same old bladder and strut arrangement.

3. yeh that red best had a similar bridle but it was on a much fuller c -shape span, so no flat leach, hence the question. having not flown a flat best kite i dont know how we've handled the leach. whats the deal here, am i expected to osmose all this fuckin info from the ether, how do you expect me to know the answer if i dont ask.

4. i'm having a hard time wondering how bridles on the best kite will be a step forward from the rapture too. whats the problem with that, KISS, if the bridles offer something else over the rapture, then yeh thats great, but untili fly it i wont know.

5. sorry MM, but in all your quoting, you seem to have forgotten to quote the bit where i said i had any first hand expeience with the neme 06, i havent set my eyes on so much as a strip of cloth, though i have been party to all proto-shots and internal product updates, as i am with all kite developments.


6. i was never pessimistic about the takoon, i believe it's a stronger design than the cabrinha...

7.re the slogan, i have no idea how the use of that slogan came about, it would seam obvious to me that whoever launhced with it first should continue to use it and the other should desist, and potentially apologise.

8.we might well use the takoon manual, it's a very good and comprehensive manual, as you would expect from the guys who really updated and developed the principle. :wink:

i think we might consider using the action shots from the cabrinha video to promote the kite, but that only seems likely if we were going to market a kite made out of ''invisible cuben'',as the crossbow seems conspicuous by it's absence in every action shot i've seen....




pilch...tsk


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:10 pm 
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you'se slipperryer than a eel boy...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:17 pm 
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1. The quote made was meant to be derogatory and you know it. I don't think I have to comment further.

2. "In late 2004, the Best R&D team, made up of Peter Stiewe, Thomas Gaehwiler, Shannon Best, Jeff Biege and Alex Shogren, began thinking 'outside of the box' and specifications for the 'perfect' kite concept were drawn up." - You tell me what thinking outside the box means, SQ. That generally means a different idea from the normal or maybe I have a different idea of what it means. There is no mention of thinking inside someone else's idea.

3. I don't see Best as a cheaper foil anymore. Again, if I really wanted to knitpick I could backup someone else's comment that Best recently said the Yarga and Nemesis would remain the cheapy choice. Suddenly this changes, and apparently this has been worked on for a while? Why didn't they just say "we can't really comment on this"?

4. At least you're prepared to backup up your statement even if its against the route that Best seem to be headed.

5. Apologies. I thought you were part of the testing team seeing you were familiar with most prototypes from Best and this is obviously a prototype if they built it so why didn't you ride it? assumption, but I kinda thought that they would test ride their kites once they built them.

Image

6. You say the Takoon is a stronger design than the Cabrinha, and yet you haven't ridden both? I don't know which is better and i haven't ridden either but maybe you're psychic. If you claim that Takoon has had the design longer, you and I know that throws your Best argument into the ground because Naish, Cabrinha, Airrush etc have had the LEI design longer so obviously their kite is 10 times better than Best.

7. Maybe your marketing guys should spend more time doing all the marketing items including looking at comparitive products instead of pasting claims on the forum in which case they may notice other companies have slogans. I assumed they had because they claimed they had produced the Best kite in the world so they must have studied opposition brands to know this. I have seen companies take jybes at each other in the commercial markets but never seen them use each others slogans. I believe Cabrinha started using that line somewhere around the time they brought out recon 1. I may be wrong, perhaps they can correct me, but that still seems earlier than Best started using it. I'm surprised they haven't taken it down already after all it was mentioned already on the forum. Or are they waiting for cabrinha's legal team to contact them? Do we get the official apology on the forum?

8. I'm not supporting cabrinha on this, but what i can say is at least cabrinha paid for the license, which qualifies them to advertise their product. Are you prepared to tell me that the most comprehensive user manuals always come from the oldest companies?

As for the last little dig about not seeing the kite, I believe thats a little bit of a hypocritical accusation coming from someone who is sponsored but the only company that sells kites that DON'T EXIST yet so I don't believe you have any leg to stand on as to cabrinha not having much footage of the actual kites in video footage. Do you have any proof regarding the fact that you believe most of the tricks were done with the use of a normal LEI? If so, would you care to share it?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:36 pm 
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30 : 15


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:05 pm 
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1. it was derogatory, i make no bones about that, i dont like the shape.

2. i see no contradiction in my statement or the post, betamax and vhs anyone?

3. the nemesis 06 is just a name designation at the minute, we may well continue with the cheaper nemesis model in ripstop under another name "nemesis light"? it aint decided yet.

4. i stand by what i know to be right/wrong, whether it's company line or not. always have.

5. i'm based in the uk, whilst i do get to test a lot of proto kit, the flat kites weren't made available to me as they were put on hold, no point wider testing stuff that will be canned.

6. just from looking at the takoon and seeing the way it rides in video compared to the cabby i believe it deals with what i see as a major issue with the flat kites, the slide turning, i've flown flat protos from another brand based on the cabby design and it slide turns. when i see the cabby turning and not slide turning, i'll apologise.... but until then i'm running on the assumption it's lack of wingtip precludes this. the takoon design is a one pump as well, so i figure its fair to call it a better design.

7.i agree

8. i've no idea of the deal re takoon and bruno, but it's usual for the company to take ownership of all design work done whilst employed, i would guess there is no licence for them to pay. re ''updated and developed the principle''; i was refering to the update of the flat kite design by bruno and the fact that they have had 18 month to write the manual as opposed to the shorter time period cabrinha have been in development for.


i'm not stating anything other than the fact the kite is not in any of the action shots, you can draw your own conclusions here, (thats called projecting, it's a an interview and marketing technique where the reader fills in his own prejudices about the topic in light of a lack of other information).

your statement that i am implying it's another kite, is actually your baggae, not mine......


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:27 pm 
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sq225917 wrote:
i've flown flat protos from another brand based on the cabby design


Was that the one the flexi guys had at Branny that day? I didnt see you riding it....but its possible I guess, I wasnt really paying that much attention...

...if its Flexi, how is it based on the Cabrinha design? Are Cabrinha "in bed" with Flexifoil - doesn't seem logical to me, why would they give it to a competitor, guess I'll check that one with CM.

They could have been developing it at the same time...but you could just as easy say it was based on the Takoon...which is the rumour I heard..... :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:04 pm 
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pilch,i said flown, not rode, i didnt take it on the water.

i don't know how close you looked at it, but it's a dead ringer for the cabby, i'm being generous by using the term 'based', what i actually mean is copied...


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