Do Foils turn a lot slower than Leis

[Mr Jo Macdonald]

Hi Peter,
On this you said Leis are "Very fast turning - the fastest I think"
I agree, there are some very fast turning leis around, (X2 and supertypes are the fastest in my book) but I don't know about this slow foil turning stuff.
You're not comparing 2003 LEis with older foils are you?
Also it depends a lot on what foil you're comparing to what lei in what sort of wind conditions.
If you compare a monster medium/low Ar foil flying in less than 10 knots to a 16m high Ar Lei flying in 15 the lei will win hands down but if you compare a 12m foil to a 16m lei in the same wind is there that much difference?
I think you should compare similar Ar kites too, like low/medium Ar foil with low/medium Ar lei and a high Ar foil with a high Ar lei.
I agree that many foils don't have as much lift as LEIS but it seems the ARC and psycho do, also like you said most foils fly faster than LEIs.
I'm not too sure about what you wrote about the brakes slowing a foil more than an lei when the kite turns either, they do obviously slow the kite but when you power up an lei to turn it you're braking with the whole kite by changing the AOA, so you're not just braking with the trailing edge.
On the question of sining, does a foil produce more pull while it turns because it flies through the turn instead of spining? If the lei turns faster because it stops and spins whiel the foil flies though the turn the lei will lose a lot more apparent wind.
Thinking about it logically as the foil is flat there's a lot more of it to turn that a C shaped LEi but I have definately been in situations where a foil was flying and turning so fast and producing so much power I was trying to slow it down and others with LEis where things were very slow.
Like I said before I think it depends a lot on the wind conditions.
Last question, if LEis turn faster then foils how come all the stunt kites are foils and not inflatable Cs?
Anyone know what the smallest lei is and if it's as zippy fast as foil stunt kites?

Hang loose
Jo

[kitehead]

naish sabre 1.5m2, pretty fast, but maybe not as fast as the stunt kites ...

btw, some days ago i tried a 1m-bar on the psycho 15,5. with the 65cm-standart-bar it turns sooo slow, but with the huge bar it is so much faster. lookes like the lower windlimit now is at least 2 knots less, cause now sining the psycho makes sense!

kitehead

[Peter_Frank]

On 2002-12-14 20:03, Mr Jo Macdonald wrote:
Hi Peter,
If you compare a monster medium/low Ar foil flying in less than 10 knots to a 16m high Ar Lei flying in 15 the lei will win hands down but if you compare a 12m foil to a 16m lei in the same wind is there that much difference?
On the question of sining, does a foil produce more pull while it turns because it flies through the turn instead of spining? If the lei turns faster because it stops and spins whiel the foil flies though the turn the lei will lose a lot more apparent wind.
Thinking about it logically as the foil is flat there's a lot more of it to turn that a C shaped LEi but I have definately been in situations where a foil was flying and turning so fast and producing so much power I was trying to slow it down and others with LEis where things were very slow.
Like I said before I think it depends a lot on the wind conditions.
Last question, if LEis turn faster then foils how come all the stunt kites are foils and not inflatable Cs?

Hang loose
Jo

The small kites is a totally different matter, so here I will not compare.
The main object of small kitesurfing kites is to slow the turning down - because you need the kites to turn very alike and useable for most kitesurfers and kitesurfing tricks.
And regarding stunt kites - here we are down in totally different angles and circumstances.
A very small foil is excellent, as turning on short lines (compared to the kite size) is not a problem, and you just want THE most low drag fast kite possible.
Here you don't need to brake the foil TE, to turn - making these even faster (2 lines are often fast enough).
No one would like a stunt kite for kitesurfing - turns way too fast.
Only if you are a land kite flyer, you might find some fascinating challenges in this I think.

Foils and LEI both "Fly" through the turn - the LEI does not stop and spin around, on the contrary - you are to some extent using the sides as a rudder also, instead of slowing the kite down by pulling a trailing edge in one side.
And even if the LEI slows down and turns (or you make it do so..) - it will lift better because of more power at low speeds !
And as you correctly stated - the C shape is easier to turn, than a flat kite - even if the C kite has to be bigger in area.
This is why you can't use a paraglider in light wind (only parked - and who cares about that.. No fun) - the turning capabilites would be awful, because of the high AR and inefficient lift distribution for turning fast.
Why do you "power up" your LEI when turning Jo ? No reason for this, just let it be powered as you wish, and steer the kite around. In fact one will often depower the whole kite during the turn, as it will travel even faster(speed) around, giving more speed and lift (almost no brake effect).
This is the very idea of the newer LEI's - you can turn quite sharp, without braking/slowing down too much.
And IF you slow it down, it'll still lift okay because of its sheer area size.
You can tweak the kite around a lot, and keep a more constant pull. Thats why a lot of wakeboarders prefer lower AR, and short lines often.

But you are right Jo - the things we talk about regarding turning, are most evident on the bigger sizes.
With small kitesurfing kites, one should choose foil or LEI after other guidelines than turning.

If one compares a 16m2 LEI to a 12m2 Foil - they could be very alike regarding turning.
But if you take the ultimative light wind kites of both (18m2 LEI, North f.ex) - then you will see the difference.
The foil has better parked low end capabilities - but because of the lack of fast turning without speed loss, it does not work for other than cruising, or small jumps straight up (which can be the thing you want of course).

I am trying to explain why LEI's have such a major part of the market, almost all of it - also if you look purely at performance, and not practical reasons.
If foils turned faster effectively, jumped higher, and had more power - then there would for sure be some who would use these (and these only) to win the contests (and win much easier) !
Maybe it will come in the future, no-one knows...
But it is not like this today.

Apart from all this - I still find foils much more fun and interesting to fly !!! (but LEI's better suited for kitesurfing generally)
_________________
Kindly - Peter Frank

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter_Frank on 2002-12-14 21:16 ]</font>

[BLOWN AWAY]

Yep you don't want a stunt kite in over 20 knots when kitesurfing.... I've used a 2.6m c quad.... pretty dodgy, damn damn fast...

BLOWN AWAY

[mmunzer]

Hej Peter,

You can't compare a 15.5 foil with a 18 LEI. You should compare the 15.5 foil with a 15.5 projected LEI... Ala 16.4 airblast, 23.5 naish, etc...

Best regards,

Marc
GoExtreme.dk

[Mr Jo Macdonald]

Mate of mine had a 22.5 Rhino and didn't like it although he loved the 16 + 12, said the big kite was just a cruising kite and too slow to be good for anything else, he said that as soon as the wind picked up for it to get interesting the 16m was already out of the bag.
Only big LEI I've seen turning fast is the 19m supertype, turns on its axis (much faster than a 18m X2), holds a ton o wind but will also start later than 16m lei grunts. Don't know about this year's kites but last year around here no one had an lei bigger than 16m really because they were considered big n heavy, and as far as I know almost everywhere last year foils were acknowledged as having the lightwind market cornered, while LEis were obviously the tops for stronger wind, comps, etc. This year it seems big leis have got faster and foils are jumping higher so we'll see, (also flysurfer have gone totaly psycho so the MA, lightwind champ for many years is no longer in the running) but as to whether a foil that's big enough to produce the same amount of power as a big lei actually turns slower than the inflato moster I dunno. If this was the case wouldn't inflatos have won the lightwind race hands down too?

[hwenn]

So is the 15.5 psycho usable for jumping? Is it still fun or is it like the 20+ meter lei's - no fun, just a cruiser?
I can't decide between 12 and 15 - help!
Henrik

[NIKS]

I know nothing about Psycho having not used it yet, but with my brother flying foils since the earlier days, we decided to go for 12.5. 15s are too big and too slow. With ligh wind you cruise nicely but get bored in 5 minutes. As soon as the winds picks up, they get too big too quickly. Better flying 12.5 may be with a bigger board than 15s without enjoying it.
Of course I may be wrong
Cheers
Niks

[sq225917]

niks, the 15 is surprisingly fast through the turns as long as you don't let it sit too low to the water at the edge of the wind to start off with.

jumping. yeh it jumps better than most kites with the same wind range. if you are a heavier rider, it makes an excellent alternative to the 12.5.

[chicagokitesurfer]

Personally, I've tested a bunch of kites.

There should be three classes of kites:

1) LEIs (Slingshot, North, etc.)
2) Non-bridled Foils (ARC)
3) Bridled-foils (Flysurfer, Ozone, etc)

The ARCs and LEIs turn fast due to the 4 line setup. When the bar is pulled, the airfoil shape is changed to create more lift which snaps the kite around in the turn much faster.

The bridled-foils have less of an effect on the foil shape, rather splitting the foil in two and using only half the kite (in a way). A much weaker turning kite and they have a tendency to stall at the edge of the window in lighter winds since there's not enough A/W.

I can't stand 2 line kites since I'm in Chicago and there's typically light wind days - and gusty. We don't even sell any 2-line kites here - they are worthless and hardly get any good use...

V
http://www.chicagokitesurfing.com