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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:28 am 
Hello. Geetings from Austria.

Can I ask something? I want to start with kiting on a Mb. But I don know, of it is possible to try this with a Buggy-kite and Handles (They are cheaper), because I live in a very gusty area. Can I use openCell without a depower in a gusty area. Is this possible or is it very important to have one. I hear very different oppinions. There are people (most from the buggyscene), who say, that I can also depower with handles and there are people
(most from the kitesurfscene), who say, that i can not fly without a depower in gusty areas. What to you think. Thanks for every oppinions. Harald


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:40 pm 
Buggy kites are fine especially if you want to go fast. Depower is helpful but not neccessary. I use Ozone Razors and they work great. Could make an arguement that a slower more stable buggy kite may be more appropriate for a mountainboard for ease of use and more grunt at slower speeds. MARK


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:00 pm 
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Location: Nova Vaga - Portugal
Start with the handles.

If you're using a non depower system, a handle gives you more control than with a bar. With handles you have 4 indepent lines to play with.

As for the gusts, i don't have depower (i use an advance rhea) and i'm constantly changing the position of the sail because of gusts. I think of it has training:)

Later, if you decide to go to the water and get a kite with depower, you'll adapt quickly.

It will end as a matter of personal taste,
i prefer the bar because that's what i use in the water and it has a leach attached.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:40 pm 
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I haven't used handles, so this is more a question. With a bar, I can let go being hooked in. How do you ride, while not working your forearms, with handles?

Also, it seems the jumping would be harder to control. With handles, can you do a board-grab? Seems to me that handles are more for stunt kites where you are standing still...

V
http://www.chicagokitesurfing.com


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2002 12:35 am 
"I haven't used handles, so this is more a question. With a bar, I can let go being hooked in. How do you ride, while not working your forearms, with handles?"

No buggies in Chicago Huh? Harness works the same on handles.

"Also, it seems the jumping would be harder to control. With handles, can you do a board-grab? Seems to me that handles are more for stunt kites where you are standing still..."
V
http://www.chicagokitesurfing.com

Actually more control with handles. If you need to grab ,steering one handed isnt going to be easy and a bar would be the call. Also if you have a kite designed exclusively for a bar like a lei then not really anything to be gained with handles.On the other hand some kites designed to be flown on handles dont do well on a bar. Mark


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2002 10:46 am 
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You can let go of the handles, they've a line connecting the two and that line passes through the hook. You can also use a special hook with a "wheel", making the line flow better than with a normal hook. You can let go of them as you let go of a bar.
But i agree that it more difficult to one handed steer a kite with handles than with a bar, and forget about those behind the back handle passes:)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:42 pm 
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Hi Harald,

maybe you already know all about this, but just to be sure we don't mix up things:

being able to Depower or not, depends on the Kite AND on the control device (Bar/Handles).

We are talking here about Ram Airs (or Softkites, or auf Deutsch: Matten). Open Cell are just plain ram air kites, with open air intakes, which makes them unsuitable for water use (they would fill with water very fast). Ram airs for Kitesurfing have "one way" air intakes, so that they can still be filled with air, but do not let it out so quickly, which means they can be landed in water and are still relaunchable.

Depower ability, on the other side, depends only on the construction of the kite.

Ram airs without depower: up to now, most of the open cells (Libre, Flexifoil etc.). With the brake lines you can take out some power from the kite, but it's no real depower. These can be flown with handles as well as bars. I find handles give you a better control, and in dangerous situations you simply let go one. Bar has other advantages (e.g. to spring), and some people prefer it.

Ram airs with depower: most modern Surfkites (Flysurfer, Advance etc.). These kites can reduce their power with a factor of 2:1, or even more. This means that through the depower, you can halve the power of the kite !
In order to work, they have to be flown with a Bar + Harness. Handles could be possible, in some cases, but are not the first option.
This also means that you have to hook in, which can be dangerous on land in gusty areas. In this case, please use a quick release system !

One more point: kites without depower usually (stress on usually!) have more power/sqm. This means you need less surface = less danger.
On the other side, kites with depower have a wider wind range and compensate gusts much better.

So what, you may ask ! If I were you I would consider following points:
- am I planning to start Kitesurfing as well ?
If yes, consider investing some more money, and buy a Kite with depower that's also suitable for water.

- Can I imagine buying more than one kite ?
If yes, considering where you live, a small/medium open cell w/out depower (3 to 4 sqm)would be a good and cheaper start. Later you might want something bigger, e.g. for snowkiting.

Last advice: just in case you don't already know it, this is a good forum in German language: http://www.kitesurfen.de/forum/index.html

take care
ciao


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 3:30 pm 
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Location: Switzerland
For a softkite a "standard" depower bar is the worst choice anyway. You will loose nearly all advantages of a foil compared to a tube.

With handles you have more functionality than with a "standard"-Depower bar.You can steer with the front lines and the rear lines. You can use one or both brakes. That will lead to turn rates as high as you like. You have the perfect control over your kite. If you use the handles with a pulley on your harness and a connecting loop, you can easily hold the kite and depower it as well.
With handles you will have a handling that is a few times better than with a standard bar.

First of all you have to look at your kite.
Does it have a power range at all. If you use an Intermediate kite like the JOJO-ET (very big power range)it would make sense to use a depower. For a JOJO-RM High performance kite, it would not make sens. You use the brakes just for steering and cooling the kite down a little bit by making it slower and as a result of the lower speed, less powerful. When you pull the brakes on an ET, the power will increase like hell. Totally different kites.

There are some clever posts above me, you should read them carefully.

I would prefer a bar, but only the SPIDER-COMPETITION bar, because this bar can do all what handles can do, but more comfortable!!
One more advantage to handles is the PBS-System. You can realize brake pulling of 60 or more centimeters you could need if you fly a 12.0 or even bigger for better turn rates. Try to do it with handles.

But there is one BIG advantage of handles compared to any depower bar especialy for beginners :

If you do a mistake you can pull yourself up with handles and get in the perfect position to the kite and on the board. If you pull on a depower bar, you will power the kite up or even stall it. Depends on the tuning and the actual position inside the window.

So it is more comfortable to use a (right)bar, but you have to be more experienced to use it. You have to be able to feel what will happen in the next second.

My tip : start with handles and if you want to go on with all of this handling,take a PARAFLYSURF-SPIDER BAR later.

This way you will always have the most fun with your SOFTKITES, on water, land, snow or in the air.

Cheers

Manfred

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Paraflysurf
M.Müller/Aviation Engineer
Switzerland

http://www.paraflysurf.ch
mm@paraflysurf.ch
0041/79/4522713

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Paraflysurf on 2003-01-19 15:45 ]</font>


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