Is Shockwave a bow ?

[philth]

Bruno –

Is the Nova your favorite kite thus far?
This one I have not flown yet, but would like too. I find all the new high projected kites very nice to fly.

I completely agree that these designs are a major step towards safety and performance.

Thanks for posting,

John B.
Research + Development

Like the other patent holders won't be pissed if he answers THAT

[brunolgx]

Bruno –

Is the Nova your favorite kite thus far?

The Nova is not my design and I flew it only twice. The Crossbow is closer to my own designs.

My favorite kite is generally one of my last prototypes.

Bruno Legaignoux

[Windwing R+D]

It is possible to turn around a patent but not around aerodynamics. A kite with a straight or convex TE will have a shape closer to a C-shape kite than to a "flat" kite.

Bruno:
With due respect to your history and innovation, there are numerous examples of flat kites both inflatable and foils without concave trailing edges. You seem to be promoting 'Bow' designs to the public by making factually unsupported statements about non-bow configurations. And, would you comment on the picture found at: {http://www.godset.dk/kiteski/images/cory640.jpg}??? If the concave trailing edge or swept crescent shape is a new or patentable innovation, it seems we should credit it to Billy and Cory Roeseler or some other stunt kite designer from a decade or two ago...
Best regards,
- Bill Hansen

[brunolgx]

Hi Billy,

PREVIOUS FLAT KITES
Yes, it is possible to make flat kites without sweep - obviously - but you need either spars, either bridles everywhere along the profile. The Seasmik type kites had a slack TE because of no sweep.

Just put sweep on such a kite, then you can remove all the bridles but the LE ones and the TE becomes "flat" and well tightened.

Take a C-shape kite, don't modify it except putting some bridles on the LE: you get a flatter LE but the TE is still round, so the LE and TE don't match, the tips have too much angle of attack, what is bad for efficiency (high drag/vortices)

I don't believe that the success of the bow kite is just marketing as I read it sometimes. I don't have to make unsupported statements to "sell the idea', it is already a success. I just try to explain people why and how it works.

If someone finds a way to make a flat and efficient sparless bridleless kite, it will be a bow kite competitor. For now I don't think any flat kite can compete with the bow except the ram-air kites.

KITESKI PICTURE
A patent never starts from nothing. You can always find similarities.

About the C-shape kite, there were already kites with inflated struts, kites with inflated LE, kites with C-shape (sleds), kites controled with 2 lines but there wasn't one with all of them or even 3 of them.
"Assembling" these features made an innovative kite which allowed kitesurfing to become a real sport.

Our new patent, as explained on http://www.bowkite.com, is a mix of a classic tube kite, a concave TE and a bridled LE. Take a C-shape tube kite, add sweep to the planform and bridles to the LE, you get a flatter kite. This is just aerodynamics but it seems that nobody had the idea before us, so it was patentable.

Yes, there were other kites with concave TE but with other shapes and for other purposes, they can't be compared. And yes, there were kites with bridled LE, kites with flat shape...

I hope it makes it clearer. These matters are not easy to explain.

Bruno Legaignoux

[brunolgx]

"A kite with a straight or convex TE will have a shape closer to a C-shape kite than to a "flat" kite"

I was obviously talking only about the curved tube kites, not about full bridle ram-air kites nor kites with rigid spars.

Bruno

[Windwing R+D]

Hi Bruno:
Only my older sister is allowed to call me that. You are not her.
Thanks for the clarification on the patent. Hopefully the users of this newsgroup and others will now be a little more educated and specific about the term 'Bow' which is your particular 'mix' of previously existing technology.

If someone finds a way to make a flat and efficient sparless bridleless kite, it will be a bow kite competitor. For now I don't think any flat kite can compete with the bow except the ram-air kites.

Your opinion. My opinion and that of a few prescient customers is that it already exists. No pulleys, no concave TE. Just a clean, flat, efficient non-bow shape.
Best regards,
- Bill

[PAFF]

So....

What is the downsides on the SLE Shockwave, compared to the real "Bow"??

And are there anything that a SLE kite, does better than the "Bow".??

Atleast in teori, it could be nice to here the up`s and down`s, on bridal kites, whit or whitout the curved TE.. (That the only difference, if i read you right.)

Also...
I have tried the X-bow-Switsblade-TD-Shockwave.. If i see it right, the bridles are not the same.

It that why some have alot barpressure and some dont?

An some have a LONG strow, for power/depower, and some have a short one. (15-25cm)..

Thanks.

[brunolgx]

Bill, sorry for your name, it was quite late when I replied and you mentioned Billy Roeseler in your message, I mixed...
And thank you for your opinion. Sure, it is impossible everybody agrees on what is the best kite, time will tell. On my side, I'll try not debate on that with other designers, it is endless and useless.

Paff,

What is the downsides on the SLE Shockwave, compared to the real "Bow"??

I never flied it so I won't reply. The only thing I can say is that the bow is flatter so there are obvious theoretic advantages in term of aerodynamical efficiency (birds and planes have flat wings, not C-shape wings). The first generation of bow kites is certainly not superior to the C-shape kites and bridled C-shape kites in all matters but it should gradually happen.

At least in teori, it could be nice to here the up`s and down`s, on bridal kites, whit or whitout the curved TE.. (That the only difference, if i read you right.)

Yes this is the only difference as these kites are just copies of our design but with less sweep. I let you wonder the reason for it.

I have tried the X-bow-Switsblade-TD-Shockwave.. If i see it right, the bridles are not the same. It that why some have alot barpressure and some dont?

No. The bar pressure mainly relates to the control bar:
- if it has no pulley: light bar pressure but long bar travel
- if it has pulleys, about twice more pressure, twice less bar travel
Theoretically you can use any bow kite with both bars depending on what you prefer but practically, use the bar delivered with the kite to avoid any safety failure. It would be possible for a brand to offer both bars to its customers.
We should not make statements on what bar is the best bar because:
- it depends on your style and background
- this debate will become obsolete with the next bow kite generations

The bridle has less relationship with bar pressure but it has too. For example, depending on the location of the tow points along the LE, you can make a kite with less bar pressure but less sheeting, or a kite with more bar pressure but more sheeting.

Bruno

[MissionMan]

So....

What is the downsides on the SLE Shockwave, compared to the real "Bow"??

And are there anything that a SLE kite, does better than the "Bow".??

Thanks.

My impressions of some initial riding on the Shockwave 12 compared to the Crossbow 12 is that the Shockwave sacrifices performance at the expense of stability, so it would seem that it does stability better, but performance worse. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure if the more C shape of the shockwave has anything to do with this.

It seems to me that the shockwave also turns more like a convention C kite while the Crossbow slides on its own axis. Not that either is better or worse but the crossbow definitely turns noticeably faster and that could be a selling point for some people. The wind range seems similar between the two although I honestly didn't spend long enough on crossbow to gain a decent assessment of its wind range so I could be very wrong. Bar pressure seems similar. i.e. heavy...heavy in light wind and more manageable as the wind increases. I couldn't say that one is heavier than the other.

I won't say more than that now, because I haven't had them out long enough to give a fair comparison so those are the basics of what I picked up. I've also spent more time on the shockwave than the crossbow.

[Dax]

This is a very special thread, it doesn't matter what your opinion on these kites... there is something special about getting information straight from the designer.