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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:39 am 
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Thanks for all the input on the thread at:

http://www.kiteforum.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... 19&forum=1

A rough summary of the results follows as I counted them:

# OF VOTES: 24

VOTES AGAINST side release shackles (SRS): 19 or 79%

VOTES FOR tip release shackles (TRS):
12 or 50%

VOTES FOR SRS:
5 OR 21 %

VOTES CONSIDERING MOVING AWAY FROM SRS:
2 of the five votes for SRS

VOTES FOR PIN QUICK RELEASES:
5 OR 21%


Examples of releases:

Side release snap shackle (SRS):
Image

Tip release snap shackle (TRS):
Image

Pin quick release (PQR):
Image

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-28 20:53 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:02 am 
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So, it would seem that an overwhelming majority of the votes (79% of the 24 votes), concluded that side release snap shackles are NOT RECOMMENDED for kiteboarding for a variety of reasons.

That is snap shackles that have a pivot or hinge on the SIDE. Several have used SRS in the past but many have changed to tip release shackles or pin quick releases over time. Tip release shackles are those with a pivot or hinge near the tip of the shackle. Of this variety information received suggests that the 2673 variety as opposed to the trigger release type may be more reliable.

Some went so far as to call for a ban on side release shackles. Several related personal experiences and actual accidents in which the side release snap shackle (SRS) played a role.

Half of the responding parties stated support for using a tip release snap shackle (TRS) such as a Wichard 2673 snap shackles. These are shackles which have a pivot or hinge closer to the tip of the shackle AND have a largely exposed release mechanism. The exposed release mechanism may be less prone to blocking with sand.

There are trigger shackles such as the Wichard 2655 & 2657 snap shackles and the Tylaska T8. Although these shackles are of the tip release variety they also have enclosed trigger mechanisms that may be prone to blockage by sand. So, based upon input received the Wichard 2673 may deliver more reliable performance than the trigger snap shackles. Please send in your experience and opinions regarding the systems that you use.

**NOTE and a WARNING:
I have been learning more about the accident that prompted the launching of this thread and the discussion of snap shackles in the first place. The rider was using a Wichard snap shackle but NOT a TIP RELEASE SHACKLE (TSR) such as the 2673. As you can see from the Wichard website:

http://www.wichard-usa.com/Catalog/HR_Snap_Shackles.htm

Wichard sells quite a few side release shackles (SRS) in the 2200, 2300,2400 and 2600 series of shackles. SRS have been voted by the majority responding in this poll to be UNACCEPTABLE for kiteboarding.

So if you want a Wichard TIP RELEASE Shackle or TRS make sure it is an appropriate model and from input to date it the 2673 model appears to have better reliability characteristics. Much of this information is relatively new so please send in your experiences and votes to help to expand the general understanding and to build consensus on appropriate snap shackle selection, rigging, maintenance and testing.

Confusing, maybe but we need to be clear when it comes to selecting, rigging, maintaining and testing something that could easily result in a good story or an extended hospital stay if things go wrong. All depending on how well the shackle works.

It seems that many respondants are looking forward to learning more about pin quick release shackles, the recently released Ocean Rodeo "punchout" control bar and other reliable options for depowering. Manufacturers, here is your que ...

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:

Rick Iossi




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-30 14:44 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:44 pm 
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RickI, dude, all you are saying is
I am masculine and I use TR.
But hey I am not addicted to using it.
I have to suck it up too but I can still manipulate the poll and try to ignore guys making some sense.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:10 pm 
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Quote:
On 2003-01-28 13:44, ccat wrote:
RickI, dude, all you are saying is
I am masculine and I use TR.
But hey I am not addicted to using it.
I have to suck it up too but I can still manipulate the poll and try to ignore guys making some sense.


I don't understand your response. Keep in mind that people may act upon what they read here. Also lots of people have been injured, some severly by release choices, rigging and maintenance practices. If we are clear and not ambigous we may be able to save some riders some potential bad times in the future.

I think you were referring to what I personally use? I have used all of these releases and none. Using none came close to killing me, at least twice. Using a side release snap shackle gave me a semi-permanent case of "kiters elbow" though one incident alone. I am mainly using pin quick releases these days and am hopeful that they will prove reliable over the long term. I also use a Kitepro Shop bar with TRS Wichard.

Most of us realize that there are few absolutes in kiteboarding and particulary in the area of quick releases. That is why an attempt to understand the views of as many riders as possilbe was made regarding side release shackles. If more want to provide clear input on this, or better still a vote, please do.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:54 pm 
you dont understand what I mean but you will act on what I say,
you use all kinds of shackles but you dont use any,
you got banged while abusing shackles but it not necessarily was not the reason.
RickI are running for a political office or what?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:32 pm 
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but back to TR or not TR.
I dont agree with RickI`s approach but he has taken up the point of safety in the first place.

My advice to all kiters is I believe clear-

0. Test your kite setups and safety system in underpowered conditions when launching the first time.
1. Make sure your kite safety system really provides safety to you and others on every launch.
2. Be aware of the weak points in your system and avoid situations provoking malfuntion.
3. Get informed on occasions - you may need to upgrade your safety system.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ccat on 2003-01-28 20:19 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ccat on 2003-01-28 20:45 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ccat on 2003-01-28 23:12 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:56 pm 
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Rick I's message is simple and VERY important:

According to inputs from around the world, the conclusion is that side release schackles have lead to severe problems in some cases.
These observations are only possible to obtain unbiased by asking around, what people has experienced.
Because you can not say 100% for sure, how a thing would work, when brought to a "real" emergency situation.

So ALL possible inputs are welcome - and this is what its all about.
To obtain a better safety level, by learning from the past, the mishaps, and what everyone in general have to comment on this subject.
We have these forums, where it is possible to learn from the whole world, and this is important, as some situations can be different in different parts of the world, and we get the best safety standards by learning from each other this way.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:55 pm 
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Rick,
After I posted my vote on the forum I got to thinking about the release that Flysurfer sends with thier kites. I decided to test it to see how easy it is to use. It works very well even if the kite is in full power mode. It was not so easy to reset it after use. I was standing on the beach. and had to fiddle with it to get it back togeather. Also if you use it and dont have the plastic tube to keep the loop on the hook there is a good chance that it will be lost in the water. Thats especialy bad for this kite as you really do need to hook in to make the kite relaunch. Its still not a perfect system but, if you had to cut away it works when powered.

Paul


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:11 pm 
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the flysurfer relase is an excellent release it does what it is meant to, release, but the new ones which you poke the verctran through the loop to reattach are impossible to in the water. (even newer ones with the little tail are easy to fix though).

and for that reason alone i also have a wichard which i use to hook into by released loop, if i have to, and get abck to the beach to sort it all out.

personally i think last years system was better.


Last edited by sq225917 on Mon Jun 30, 2003 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:42 pm 
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I've had some unecessary releases with the flysurfer velcro chicken loop when holding the depower on the bar, now I keep it tight with a few turns of insulating tape and don't use it as a QR option.
Imo using any snap shackle means being attached to the kite until you release it, you can't hook in and out if you want and if you do/can release the shackle the fixed loop can still catch in your spreader bar hook. For me nothing beats the prolimit QR spreader bar


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