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what disciplines should a world cup show?
Freestyle only 6%  6%  [ 5 ]
Freestyle and one other discipline 11%  11%  [ 10 ]
Freestyle and two more disciplines 12%  12%  [ 11 ]
As many disciplines as possible 53%  53%  [ 47 ]
Have world cups each for one discipline 11%  11%  [ 10 ]
Other, pls explain 7%  7%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 89
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:22 pm 
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kitegrommet wrote:
...but competition is competition. You go faster, knock the guy out, score the most points, you win. Period.


Yup. good call. Contests are about pushing yourself, the other riders and the sport to the next level. Just because YOU (not kitegrommet, just referring to anyone reading this) don't want to compete or watch competitions doesn't mean that they have no merit or validity. There are a lot of people out there that thrive on competition. I'm one of them. So wht better way to have competition than contests?

Contests: can you be better than the other guy, given a specific set of guidelines?

So as for styles for kiteboarding...

Kiter-cross:
Cool. Makes sense. The first guy over the line wins. Simple and quantitative.

OldSchool:
Lame. We don't need a pro-level oldschool contested requirement. Doesn't the name itself "oldschool" imply to you that it's done and over with? This is the freestyle of the past when riders couldn't do what they can now. I'm not saying that theres anything wrong with this style of riding, it just doesn't have a place in pro-level contests.
You don't see F1 car racers stopping at red lights, parallel parking and loading groceries in the trunk during a course because it's what people do when they drive in the real world, do you?
Damn, why not the make it a requirement that during each heat - you have to make your own plywood board, then drive and check the wind at 3 spots, then make a special custom bar, ride and then make a post on a forum about your session before you score any points?

BigAir/hangtime:
Fine, whatever. It's quantitative so it's good for competition. Not my thing personally, but I can see how it would have merrit and I would probably end up watching a few minutes of the highlights reel.

Speed:
sounds good - but not to be included in the regular contest tour or format.

Long distance:
okay. Point to point. Good stuff I guess. We can pack a picnic and a waterproof camera!

Mutant freestyle:
whatever :roll: I guess that will be sponsored by all of the brands that still make production mutants?

Freestyle:
Whatever impresses the most, wins. And what impresses...? Techincal tricks. Like the current PKRA. Right now at least. Sure, some refinements can be made (powered landings, etc..), but that's just fine-tuning. As for required tricks - that's lame. The whole point is to ride better than the other guy, right? So do it your own way and find a way to shine. Sure it's subjective, but there's a pretty good points system in place. Just because it looks to you like "10 handle passes in a row", doesn't mean that it does to everyone (especially the riders, who are the ones competing anyways).
It's all about pushing the boundaries.
But who knows... Lenten has a pretty cool combo of big air powered and technical. Maybe that's closer to the future.

Kiteloop/best trick:
well, this is pretty much freestyle. This is fine for local contests, and pretty fun to do - but not really a pro-tour type destinction.

Wakestyle:
Boots and baggy t-shirts are a requirement to get past the qualifying rounds. Hah. just kidding - I'm actually in to the wakestyle stuff.
uhh... this should fit under freestyle. It's just that some riders aren't doing it right. :wink: Hah! Personally, I'm in to wakestyle, but I think that for contests sake, it should be grouped together. Maybe once all of the pros have most/all of the tricks dialed, then "style" will come in to play a little more in freestyle contests. Then it'll will likely start taking back a few more influences from 'wakestyle' (ie. kite powered & low, powered & fast landings). But this is just a refinement, and everyone draws the line somewhere different. Besides... we're really all just rollerbladers-of-the-sky, right? :wink:

Sliders/kickers:
Cool shit, but it don't think that it is mainstream and widely available enough to be included as a requirement for pro competition.

Waves:
ohhh.... here's where it gets a bit tricky. not a new thing to kiteing, but new to the mainstream. and it's evolving and changing so fast. Okay, so judging on "style" is key here. I think that it's doable though. check out the ASP. You set up a criteria for judging on style. Then if you like it and fit it - you compete. If not, you take off and do your own thing and don't bitch about it.
I'm stoked to enter some wave contests and check it out from a competitor's point of view before I make any real comments here though.

Well, that's my 2cents.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:36 pm 
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Quote:
Whatever impresses the most, wins. And what impresses...? Techincal tricks.


talking about impression? Who do you want to ask? 95% of the kiters and almost all spectators?

--> Old School Big Air

no doubt here.

I'm really impressed by the small video of the Red Bull King of the Air 2005...that's what a comp should look like! Or the big air best trick in Tarifa.
Everyone gets stoked, even the riders!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:36 pm 
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okay, I guess that I could have clarified... "whatever impresses peers, ie. judges, other competitors and even spectators that are 'in the know'".
A true competitor is trying to push himself to be better, stronger, faster, more cowbell, whatever than the other guy. So it's not about impressing the mass-public, it's about impressing himself (or herself) and the other riders.

Don't get me wrong Toby, I don't mean to be baggin on the 'oldschool' style - I've seen some pretty stylish oldschool riders. What I don't think, though, is that it warrants pro-level competition.
1) it's not as technically difficult (if it was, then the PKRA guys would still be doing it).
2) it's more based on style... which in this area is VEEEERY subjective (check out kitescoop.com or any of the pro-waker posts and you'll see them bashing the style all-together).
3) it's not very quantitative. Well... I guess neither is any freestyle, but at least the more technical it is, the more quantitative it gets.

I've read and heard people complaining that it's only young kids that can go out there and have a chance of doing well in technical contests, and they have a problem with that. Well, sorry - but that's just the way it is. And that's the way it is with MANY sports. Hey, it doesn't help me out personally any more than you, but that's the nature of sport.

Toby wrote:
Who do you want to ask? 95% of the kiters and almost all spectators?

--> Old School Big Air

no doubt here.


Okay, I'll give you that some joe-average kiters and most non-kiters want to see oldschool bigair. It probably IS good for the growth of our sport to have some events based on that criteria.

But, I think that that style belongs more to regional-level "fun" competitions/events that everyone can participate in, and maybe the odd Exhibition-style events. I don't, however think that anyone with a true competitive spirit (and motivation, skills, training and discipline to back it up) would consider that to be worthy pro-level competition.

I think that it's really a difference between personal drive and motivation. Some people are happy to go out for the fun of competing just to get the purple participation ribbon and 'see how well they can do'; while others are out to either win, or improve their score over the last event.
Neither is better or worse - it's just personal choice, and it think that there needs to be a venue in which the truly competitive can rightfully challenge themselves and the sport.

"Oldschool" is a very valid part of our sport, but to go back to my analogy from my last post - you don't see pro competitions for city driving.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:24 pm 
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Look at Olympic / World Cup skiing and you'll see a nice variety of specialties - trick jumping, distance jumping, speed (downhill), speed (slalom), skiercross, halfpipe, etc.

The question is, does kiting have enough riders and spectators to justify more disciplines? I think it would be good if the tours can work it in.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:50 pm 
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El nino wrote:
"Oldschool" is a very valid part of our sport, but to go back to my analogy from my last post - you don't see pro competitions for city driving.


Well, by this analogy, drag-racing isn't a sport because you're just going in a straight line... Stock car racing isn't either, since you're just going in a big circle.

Right now, kiting only has 2 competitive disciplines: pure speed and pure trick. Kitercross is making some inroads, but I'm not so sure it has "found itself" in terms of it being a competitive discipline.

I personally think it would be good for comps to branch out a bit more - the freestyle comps seem to be more focused on difficulty than style. Not saying it's wrong, but if there are no other disciplines, then where's the style? No wonder guys like Dre don't compete.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:52 pm 
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Tom183 wrote:
Well, by this analogy, drag-racing isn't a sport because you're just going in a straight line... Stock car racing isn't either, since you're just going in a big circle.


well, I wouldn't call any car racing "sports" anyways, but that's beside the point...

I think that you miss-understood my analogy - it was meant to say that you don't typically see competitions for the mundane, even if it does represent what the majority of the public are doing.


Tom183 wrote:
The question is, does kiting have enough riders and spectators to justify more disciplines?


good question. nope.


Tom183 wrote:
the freestyle comps seem to be more focused on difficulty than style. Not saying it's wrong, but if there are no other disciplines, then where's the style? No wonder guys like Dre don't compete.


I'm all for style. It's just very hard to judge - too subjective. It's been tried over and over in other sports. Look at snowboarding... it's constantly tried and no one can ever agree on clear rankings and all the competitors leave feeling cheated. It's a nice dream, but I don't know if it can be a reality. Besides, who is to say that Dre's style of tweaking the sh*t out of a railslide is any better than Toby taking his kitepants higher than anyone else. :wink: :thumb:
As for style, it likely has to go the way of other sports and come down to who gets the best photos and the most respect from the other top riders. Style is a very personal thing. Look at surfing... a lot of the guys rank themselves stylewise by something as finite as their anual segment in the next Taylor Steele movie. (everyone go watch them all, by the way!)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:44 am 
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How about no competition, or few so the sport does not become dictated by marketing and grows out of control.

look at what has happened to surfing in the last 10 years.
it almost doubled. thanks to all the big companies wanting more customers.
if you don't surf, go to any surf forum and you will quickly understand.


do you want to pull up to your local spot and find that their is a waiting line to go out and kite safely?

I know i got drawn to the sport due to the fact that I do not have to deal with crowds like I had to with surfing. everyone is happy to see each other. but if the beach gets crowded with kiters, the vibe will certainly change (stink eyes?)

so if you want to compete, great. but do it on a small scale and try not to get the whole word involved.

my 2c


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:49 am 
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High jump - but only if over 26 knots


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:34 am 
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if a world champion is suposed to be the best of all the kiteboarders, the world championship should include all the disciplines.

is hadlow better than waiman? is dre better than laird hamilton?
well yes and no since each of them excel in one discipline only.

if, as suggested before, all the disciplines where represented in the tour, with a system of points we could get a world champion for each disciplines and the overall winners being the ones that have accumulated the more points at the end of the season.

One thing that should not be removed from comp is the most inovative tricks, since it is what is taking the sport forward.(even though I don't like to watch actual comp).

so yes:
big air/hang time
most innovative trick
most technichal trick
long distance/borderx
waves


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:43 am 
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I don't wont to enter a heated conversation here, but i would like to give a little input.
By forgetting about what the public thinks we are hurting ourselves. Without an audience where does the market go? I don't know about you, but i think kiteboarding is one of the best sports out there, and i want to be able to share this wonderful sport with everyone.
As someone who is a rider and knows alot about the industry, let me tell you that the money is not flowing like it used to, it is there, but barely.
I want to see our sport grow, and as a rider my biggest thrill is to put on a show and give other people the joy.
Everyone has there own "thing" or "style" and i am not putting anyone down, but when there is an audience at the beach and good riders on the water they could care less, let alone understand if someone did a mobe or mobe 7, usually they think it is a cool back flip, but when someone does a jump, they go crazy.
Guys, maybe since we ride everyday we forget! But when we jump, for a few seconds we are flying! that is every boys and girls dream. that is what makes "Kiteboarding". Wake boarders do powered tricks because they cant "dangle". Kiteboarders are not limited to just powered tricks. That is what makes it so unique.

Back to my main point. Without the public you don't have an industry. When you have the publics attention you have sponsors, when you have sponsors you have more peoples attention and the industry grows which in turn will produce better gear because the companies will have more money to use.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but what matters is that we all have fun doing what we want to do.


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