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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:42 am 
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The wind was slightly off shore, which makes it turbulent (there is a big hill upwind), may have been a freak turbulence, but you have to give it to the kid. It looked bizarre floating up and down. "Helicopter style loop" is a good description, the kite spin above, didn't go down to the power zone. Combination of circumstances that who knows when will happen again.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:06 am 
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Tell ya what, It'll happen again guaranteed!!! I've known the Richmond bros since I first started kiting and they are very innovative and dynamic and if they do it once they'll do it again; these two are the real thing and it's great to see two Maui homeboys grabbing some spotlight; right on lads, Maui No Ka Oi....AWRIGHT!!!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:44 am 
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I saw him (or somebody that looked like him) pull a 10 or 12 second hang time jump today with the same style . . . . kinda loopy looking :-) bobbing up and down not far off the surface. I was out riding myself and just came in when I saw this. Near the beach, there seemed to be a lot of updrafts as I had to pay very close attention to my kite to prevent it constantly overflying. Maybe the updrafts help this kind of jump.

Interesting to see, and probably fun to do, but I think the spectators would have appreciated a 40 foot high jump with 7-8 seconds hang time much, much more. At least he made the most of crappy conditions!

The ramp was a waste of time, peaking only 6 feet off the ground and giving you (at best) the added boost of a small swell no far from breaking. I say they build a REAL 30 foot ramp next time and put it somewhere that actually has nuking wind on a consistent basis (I.E. NOT Crissy and/or NOT close to the beach).

Cheers,

Gideon


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:54 am 
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schmoe wrote:
The wind was slightly off shore, which makes it turbulent (there is a big hill upwind), may have been a freak turbulence, but you have to give it to the kid. It looked bizarre floating up and down.

ImageImageImageImage

gideonlow wrote:
Near the beach, there seemed to be a lot of updrafts as I had to pay very close attention to my kite to prevent it constantly overflying. Maybe the updrafts help this kind of jump.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:29 am 
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Rubbish!

Eric holds the record!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:49 am 
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If not aided by leeside uplift wave like above, another possible lift factor is shown below. This is the classic sea breeze front that gliders ride at certain times just southwest of SF. Even though slightly off-lee-shore in the kiters case, the cold sea air could be converging against remains of hot air swept off the city:
Image

What are the physics of a "helicopter loop"? There is no free lunch of energy, so it must milk lift at some high cost (of drag, or arm effort?).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:52 am 
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Rockstar wrote:
Rubbish!

Eric holds the record!


I'm sure Erik will be glad to hear that, but he didn't really land very nicely though..and he has no wish to redo his achievement for sure.

A


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:49 am 
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daft wrote:
schmoe wrote:
The wind was slightly off shore, which makes it turbulent (there is a big hill upwind), may have been a freak turbulence, but you have to give it to the kid. It looked bizarre floating up and down.

ImageImageImageImage

gideonlow wrote:
Near the beach, there seemed to be a lot of updrafts as I had to pay very close attention to my kite to prevent it constantly overflying. Maybe the updrafts help this kind of jump.


Definitely rotors--their was barely 1/2 mile to the dense fog upwind and the air temp firmly in the dense marine layer even without fog was maybe a couple of degrees warmer than the water--if not exactly the same. There were signs of the "wrong" end of these rotors as well while I was riding.

I was on my Venom, which usually eats crappy wind conditions for lunch, and even I was quite wary of stability 1/2 mile to a mile away from the beach into the channel. My guess, on the outside, it was 20 average, but 10 in the lulls and 30 on the gusts. At the beach? 5-20 (maybe brief bursts of 25) average 10. Eric was finding just the spot where those rotors came back up :-). Pretty good instincts and or preparation on display!

Cheers,

Gideon


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:29 am 
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daft wrote:
Image
If not aided by leeside uplift wave like above, another possible lift factor is shown below. This is the classic sea breeze front that gliders ride at certain times just southwest of SF. Even though slightly off-lee-shore in the kiters case, the cold sea air could be converging against remains of hot air swept off the city:
Image

What are the physics of a "helicopter loop"? There is no free lunch of energy, so it must milk lift at some high cost (of drag, or arm effort?).


I have not heard the expression before - but am not in doubt at all.

It is when the kite is looped above your head, instead of going very low.
Maybe not straight overhead - but kite up high, so the power generates upwards lift and not horisontal speed.

But you are right - there is no "free energy" no.
So you cant extend the lift this way alone. The energy put into it by "arm" force is so small - can not contribute here at all really.

What is it all about then ? When speaking in general terms that kitelooping can sometimes extend the jump ?

Well, dont think anyone can answer this totally specific - but I have some input:

A kite flying at higher speed gives more lift/power - we all know !
So many think, that this must mean that you'll get more lift when looping the kite ? Wrong :wink:

A "stationary" kite - which is when you are standing on the ground og bodydragging in the water - is a complete different matter than a kitesurfer in the air :D

When you are having a fixed point on the ground (bodydragging is to some extent a "bit" fixed - because of the drag in the water) - a kite can generate loads of power when sweeping around fast in the powerzone.
This is to a major extent because you have a bigger "swept area" and uses the power of a bigger wind area.

When in the air - none of this exists :roll:

You could say - take a paraglider f.ex (or any glider).
If a paraglider rides straight out, it will no doubt at all have the lowest sink rate (= max hangtime in a jump)
If circling (looping the kite) the sink rate will increase dramatically with narrow turns.
Simple physics and also practical experiences.

Okay - so that is the case - then what ?

THERMALS ! (or some other updraft)

When close to the shore, and the wind is a bit offshore - thermals (hot rising air "bubbles") can be ripped off the ground and go up and out over the water.
As most know, a glider or seagull or eagle circling without flapping its wings - will fly in circles to get the maximum updraft, as it is far more important to STAY IN THE LIFTZONE, than having the lowest sink rate compared to the air.

I've now got 34 years of experience with thermals and flying - and can say for sure, that some just have the "intuitive" natural gift, to find and center thermals.
Others has a bit of natural gift, and a good understanding and experience (knowing what to look for - other birds flying, wind changes in different zones etc.) - which combined gives them the very best ability to find and use thermals to the max :thumb:

The other thing that can be the case is, that when going down from a jump - you can in fact use ALL energy to get the last hangtime out of a jump - which means your kite will have no energy when you land on the water - but so what 8)

So a well timed kiteloop will give you the last few extra seconds in the air, before touchdown.

Other facts that matter are the actual lift conditions - how are they shaped, how do they "work" etc.
Which may affect ANY logical thinking and experience of course.

But bottom line is - that some are gifted with the ability to find and use lift (like this gifted kid, no doubt :D ), and that extreme hang time are always a matter of "extreme" lift conditions or wind squalls or rotors, and not "stable" air.

So hang time records will always be a bit "so so" and not something depending on gear and performance - as you can never tell when it is actual lift, or just pure performance from rider and gear :wink:

Almost like when a snowkiter goes off a mountain - and could fly for hours if he/she wanted - what is that ?
A hangtime record or just ridge soaring ???

On the other hand - we are all aware from our local spots, that SOME gifted kitesurfers can jump higher and with more hangtime, consistently :thumb:

That is the true hangtime experts :P

Kindly, Peter Frank


Last edited by Peter_Frank on Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:53 pm 
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Wow that's really cool, a really good rider using an efficient high performance kite, breaking records!! 8)

Those Switchblades for sure are floaty!! :D


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