eree, they don't seem to have reasons, more of a reaction to the growing number of kiteboarders. Michael can tell you more, I'm just a messenger. It's an incredible flat water riding location and it would be very sad if the ban holds.
Thanks to everyone who signed! We are very close to the initial goal of getting 800 signatures.

in answer to the question of why access has been restricted there is no specific rule or regulation in the NY State Parks Rules and Regulations that restricts kitesurfing.

In answer to Richard M, the rules and regulations are freely available on the net. restricted kiting refers to stunt kite flying not the traction kites used in kiteboarding. Richard why are you using terms like general counsel and taking it on yourself to contact them? Alll the kiters in NY are trying to do is get a petition before the Park's Board with a target number of signatures?

There is a long history of restrictions based on the arbitrary actions of NY state park personnel. 9 years ago the chief ranger at Hecksher State park decided to ban kitesurfing and there has been no kiting since. Windsurfing, jetskiing and fishing continue to flourish in the same state park.

The State Park's are practicing a selective discrimination and it's encumbent on all kiters to take a stand and ensure continued access for all kiters the world over.

barry

The site which was supposed to have the Rules and Regs wasn't working when I tried it in February 09.

I contacted the Chief Counsel because the Parks Director suggested I do so if I had any questions regarding the Rules.

I prefer to obtain the most reliable and accurate information possible before deciding what action to take. For example, unless you have some addendum to the rules which wasn't in the copy the Director emailed me, "stunt kites" are not mentioned anywhere. There are however, 2 rules which could be applied to prevent kitesurfing.

Because some of the terms used in said rules are not clear, I want to find out what the Chief Counsel says they mean AND the legal basis associated with his determination.

And the reason authorities want to ban kitesurfing is very simple. The bottom line is that the Parks department is a bunch of bureaucrats. Bureaucrats want to avoid work and regulating kiters is work.

Unfortunately, the solution tends to be a lot more complicated. It needs to become MORE WORK to fight with you or especially their political bosses, then they will be cooperative.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

These guys seek access at a very specific launch at Jones Beach State Park. In fact, strictly speaking access was never actually permitted, the park rangers just turned a blind eye to the kiters (most of the time, anyway). People have been launching there for a couple years or more. Something happened recently to change the park's attitude, I'm not sure what.

Anyway, here's the deal with New York State Park rules: only specific, "designated uses" (or some such similar language) are permitted in a given park or area within the park. Anything that is not a designated use is therefore, by default, not allowed. The rangers have used this formulation to "ban" kiting, surfing and any number of other activities.

The solution is to get the specific designated uses changed. The only designated use for many of the state park ocean beaches is surf fishing - no swimming, no kites, no surfers - nothing but fishing and 4x4's on the beach for the fishermen. The surfers have been fighting this for years. they recently had a little success getting allowed us changed at Montauk State park so they can surf part of the year. I'm not sure if these guys contacted them to find out what the administrative process was.

The statement, "Anything that is not a designated use is therefore, by default, not allowed.", is not entirely accurate.

Section 372.7 lists "Activities requiring a permit."

Section 375.1 lists " Activities absolutely prohibited."

Section 377.1 lists "Regulated activities."

Section 377.1 contains the activities which might relate to kiting, however some of the terms used are vague and I'm waiting for a response from the Chief Counsel which hopefully will clarify them.

Actually, anything that is NOT listed in the foregoing sections, and is not otherwise illegal, should be allowed.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

The word "should" has little meaning to the NYS park bureaucrats. For all practical purposes that's exactly how the parks behave, right or wrong. Many have been down the same road. Good luck Rich, let us know what you learn.

I think trying to interpret the written rules and then approaching the authorities with your version of the rule is maybe not the best approach at first. Thats a last resort.

I would think approaching them with the petition and overwhelming support along with supporting reasons why kiters should be allowed is the approach thats seems to work the most.

Doctors motto. ...First do no harm. Let them know that kiters will do no harm. Next, what good will they do. Offer to coordinate a yearly park cleanup with kiters. Involve yourselves with the community. Provide a written list of rules and maybe shell out a few bucks in good faith to make some signs with the rules that could be posted. Designate a contact between the park and the kiters so that a central person or group of people can be contacted to go over issues as they arise.Perhaps printout a copy of the IKO or similar certification program to let them know that kiters arent a bunch of kooks and that we really are quite structured abd have rules. Offer a educational lecture on kiter safety and rescue techniques for park rangers.

Like Dalton in Road House preached to his bouncers. Be nice until its time not to be nice. The not to be nice time refers to going to the rule book to establish legal use rights but who wants to go there.

Sorry krazed, but I think your suggestions I have numbered above should be the LAST resort for the following reasons:

1). In any discussions with authorities, it is very easy to bring up issues which negatively affect kiters (I prefer not to list them) and which said authorities may not have been aware of or concerned with. Let THEM tell YOU exactly what their concerns are. Maybe they're minimal and easy to deal with.

Bare in mind that their REAL concern usually boils down to avoiding WORK.

2). Perhaps this touchy-feely offer can be helpful, however I doubt that authorities will give it much weight since you don't have a contract to do the work. It's even possible that the workers (or their union) who clean up the place may feel you're putting their jobs in jeopardy. Furthermore, I can't help but feel like it is essentially extortion.

3). Squabbling about rules can have the same unintended consequences as described in # 1). above.

4). Who would these people be? Who would "designate" them? Who knows what their agendas might be? What would be their authority (nil)?

5). This one REALLY bothers me. Besides your completely incorrect assumption that ANY organization has ANY way of distinguishing "kooks" from other kiters, this would be the first step to making it MANDATORY that kiters join some organization in order to kite. There are many threads on this forum which deal with the negative aspects associated with organizations and many people would strenuously object to being FORCED to join in order to kite.

6). This can have the same unintended consequences as described in # 1). above. Additionally, they might consider this as additional WORK.

7). Roadhouse is a movie, NOT real life. At any rate, I remember seeing Dalton's bouncers get beat to sht.

88) Anyone who is afraid to stand up for their rights, DOESN'T HAVE ANY.

The PURPOSE of the Rules and Regs is specifically to PREVENT arbitrary rules etc. from being promulgated by "public servants" such as those in the Parks Department.

There are many excellent reasons why it can be much more productive to find the legal basis associated with some authority's action. Believe it or not, it is not unusual to find that not only is there no authority to ban or regulate kiting, but sometimes you'll find that the rules specifically ALLOW kiting. Unfortunately, this is apparently not the case here.

However, it is distinctly possible that the Park has overstepped its authority by arbitrarily banning kiting. Whether this argument is valid, and to what degree, will depend on interpretation of the Rules and Regs. Before being able to argue about any particular interpretation, it would be beneficial to find out the Park's interpretation and the legal basis for its interpretation. This is why I wrote to the Chief Counsel. It is his job to provide these interpretations etc.

There is nothing wrong with presenting a petition and it could be very successful. However, I think it is incorrect to assume that any of the Park personnel really care about what you want. They only care about the problems your petition may cause them if their BOSSES (politicians) have to deal with a bunch of irate voters. And you might consider that 1000 signatures may not be "overwhelming support" compared to the MILLIONS of visitors Jones beach gets every year.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

Richard, you don't seem to get it. Over the years many of us, myself included, have been down this road with the NYS Park people. They did NOT arbitrarily ban kiting. They didn't have to. Because it not an allowed use (or however they phrase it in their bureaucrat-ese), kiting was defacto banned from the start. This is not about reversing a ban, it's about getting the bureaucrats to allow a new use. This is exactly the issue that Surfriders faced at Montalk. Surfing wasn't banned, it just wasn't allowed. The only thing that was allowed was fishing. The SurfRider struggle was to fight the fishing lobby to get surfing allowed. This sounds wierdly backwards, and it is, but that's how they have the system set up. Hence there is no overstepped authority or interpretation.

I dont really know how to say this without starting a fight but I hope it wont because it is a sincere comment. I can already tell by the length of your post (screams I have a million things I want you to know Im right about) and your perceived aggressiveness in this matter that a more suttle approach may be more a benefit. I am aware RH is a movie it was just supposed to be a funny comment but your reaction to it also screams tension. Please take this in a positive way... but I am already on edge reading your reply, dont you think the park officials might get on edge if they are ambushed by throwing the rule book at them and telling them that all their rangers are WRONG.

If you are at a store and they put the wrong price on you Cocoa Puffs do you call the police because you think they are trying to rob you? No, you fist start with the cashier, then the asst. Manager and then you can go to the Store GM or District GM and start quoting the Consumer Protection laws.

And BTW, Daltons bouncers were idiots, they were too inexperienced to realize the art of reason. Dalton was the cool head who, in the end, won the war. He ended up with the hot girl, a great new home with family and friends, and he got rid of the bad guy.

I wish you guys from NY luck with this