*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:56 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:37 am
Posts: 2182
Hel -just don't go there!

Most of these problems disappear if you don't go to some hel-hole with 50x the fun and safe number of riders.

But the pictures and rules look good mostly.

It is obvious common sense to avoid sailboats and motorboats, but it's better not to make a "rule" that kiters give way to them.

This is opposite to colregs and sailing racing regs so just don't do it.

You especially don't want to put up signs showing kiters getting out of the way of boats, when the problem is, sometimes we are not able to get out of the way even if we try.

As for tricks, the same traffic rules apply, unless you have a contest or something where you can set up a tricks-only area.
For surfing, again the key is to find space.
If it's too crowded, waves are not going to be fun or safe, no matter what the rules are.

By the way, Richard although your post is way too long and I couldn't read it all,
I better point out I think you are dead wrong about port and starboard.

Every other water user follows the same colregs/rules of the road, and kiters better do it too,
or we will always lose out and be fighting boats and windsurfers
(from shore, after we get banned).


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:15 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:40 pm
Posts: 641
Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
BWD wrote:
Hel -just don't go there!

Most of these problems disappear if you don't go to some hel-hole with 50x the fun and safe number of riders.

But the pictures and rules look good mostly.

It is obvious common sense to avoid sailboats and motorboats, but it's better not to make a "rule" that kiters give way to them.

This is opposite to colregs and sailing racing regs so just don't do it.

You especially don't want to put up signs showing kiters getting out of the way of boats, when the problem is, sometimes we are not able to get out of the way even if we try.

As for tricks, the same traffic rules apply, unless you have a contest or something where you can set up a tricks-only area.
For surfing, again the key is to find space.
If it's too crowded, waves are not going to be fun or safe, no matter what the rules are.

By the way, Richard although your post is way too long and I couldn't read it all,
I better point out I think you are dead wrong about port and starboard.

Every other water user follows the same colregs/rules of the road, and kiters better do it too,
or we will always lose out and be fighting boats and windsurfers
(from shore, after we get banned).


BWD:

Would you have read it all if I had made it 2 separate posts?

I think it makes more sense to worry about having guidlines which are easy and sensible for kiters to follow than worry about the relatively remote possibility that some idiot will collide with a boat. As to windsurfers, since they are less manueverable, they should always be given the Right Of Way.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:55 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 2789
I agree with BWD about adhering to the port and starboard rule.
I think kiters should know the rules everyone else on the water is using and have been using for many years. Those rules were created because there were avoidable collisons happening because everyone was guessing what the other water user was going to do. It does not make sense to make up a new set of rules that conflict with the rules everyone else is using.
There are new rules needed for kiter/kiter traffic, but windsurfers for example, expect kiters to adhere to the port starboard rule, not give way to windsurfers on every occasion.

The surf rules in windsurfing are basically the same as what Richard wrote.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:36 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:58 pm
Posts: 1266
My sign would be simpler:

....................................................................................................................................................

BEWARE........."DANGEROUS PLAYGROUND"

Give a wide berth to the SHOW-OFFS, the BULLIES, and the INCOMPETENT!!!

....................................................................................................................................................


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:00 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:56 am
Posts: 3750
Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
Seems to be more detractors than supporters.... no wonder nuthing gets done. And you folks want the kite manufacturers to come together with some sort of standard for bars and quick releases? Give me a break....


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:19 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:58 pm
Posts: 1266
Good point!

The case one could make in favor of the detractors of establishing rules, is this: By "establishing" rules, in situations where you have a preponderance of very independent thinking individuals, who are more likely to behave according to their own beliefs, a more dangerous situation is created, because of the fact that the individuals, who try to follow the rules, will be deluded into believing that all the participants are following these rules, and therefore, the false sense of security of the "rule-followers" will get them into trouble.

For instance, a common situation would be that of the "rule-follower" holding his course on a Starboard tack when approaching a fellow kiter. After the accident, the fellow kiter might respond: "Dude, you could see I was 'loading up', obviously setting up for 'busting a big move', yet you just kept coming....why didn't you back-off? Kiteboarding is all about 'going big' and 'throw'in down'...what do you think... you're in a slalom race?"

So, one could make the case, that, in situations where there is likely to be a "failure to communicate", and where there are a great variance in "personality types" and attitudes,... caution and discretion should be the "order of the day"... not disputable dogmatic rules.

On the other hand, in kite racing situations, I would support the case that dogma and hard-fast, well enforced rules, with penalties, are a "must" for the race to be successful.

For situations, other than formal competitions, perhaps the only worthwhile rule would be "The Golden Rule"...'Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you'.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:44 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:56 am
Posts: 3750
Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
kitezilla wrote:
Good point!

The case one could make in favor of the detractors of establishing rules, is this: By "establishing" rules, in situations where you have a preponderance of very independent thinking individuals, who are more likely to behave according to their own beliefs, a more dangerous situation is created, because of the fact that the individuals, who try to follow the rules, will be deluded into believing that all the participants are following these rules, and therefore, the false sense of security of the "rule-followers" will get them into trouble.

Rules without enforcement simply serve to establish a convention of behavior to help people work things out cooperatively. The person not following the convention of behavior is the one creating trouble and getting into trouble, not the other way around. The inflated ego and "me first" attitude is the problem, not the false sense of security. All of us are alert on the water and watching out for the lame-brain or some other unexpected event.

It's easy to try claim the justification of "independent thinker." Every kid from the age of 0 to 18 does it. After that, they either become responsible adults who think independently or become criminals. Part of growing up is learning when it makes sense to follow established conventions of behavior versus when you are being led by the nose to someone else's gain and should rebel.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:52 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:49 am
Posts: 1000
Location: shallow sea
Satan wrote:
...The main idea needs to be changed from "right of way" to "general rules of curtsey". No right of way rules are ever going to prevent collisions between kitesurfers, but we can draft some guidelines that help people understand the dynamics of kitesurfing traffic. We're kitesurfers. It's about peace, freedom and understanding not about erecting some fascist state where no one has any fun.


for me this BraCuru comic picture style simple rules are the best, because they are simple enough and graphic. i didn't notice your proposal of the rules besides of "general rules of courtesy", which is too stretchy.

i don't like those guys who depending on the circumstances demanding their rights either on starboard tack rules or wave rules. for me, in my region with the poor waveride conditions if somebody wants to ride waves must notice others about waveride and its zone.

and if for example I am a beginner 250lb with the west and helmet. I wouldn't care where I am practice my moves. the sea is free for everyone. I let the advanced kiters collide with me. they are mostly "sheepweight" and don't carry safety gear. so most probably I would be winner. there are no street signs on the water, no police so it is pretty much would be wild west if it wouldn't be simple and graphic starboard tack rule.

and I don't find crowdedness of the kitespots is the influential reason to not to recognize the starboard rule.

problem is those "experienced" instructors teaching new guys at the very same place where most of the advanced kiter use to ride.


if you appose existing simple rules, you have to try to make some understandable simple enough and working alternative rules instead!

winds


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:26 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:28 pm
Posts: 1681
Location: i m lost cause kiting adrenaline steal my soul with heart
Windrider wrote:
Toby wrote:
partly right, Satan.

If there is a specific perfect flat water jump area, way should be give to the one who loads up for jumping there, I agree.

But in normal riding areas, where you just ride to go upwind, starboard makes sense to make sure it does not become a mess.

And please, show a bit more respect towards other people who put a lot of work into this when choosing your words.

I would also like to discuss this picture:

Image

Looking at the wind, I would assume the kiter in the wave will ride the wave and ride further downwind, so it does not make sense that the red kiter goes downwind of the wave kiter!
Just make the red kiter jibe away from the wave kiter at all, but the downwind should be given to the wave kiter.

Otherwise, great work! :thumb:

I think the picture is simply stating that the person approaching another person on a wave should "give way".... not that they should go down wind... simply that they should do the work to avoid the person on the wave.

Perhaps a similar picture with a person in the air after a jump instead of on a wave would be a good idea? The trouble with the notion that a person in the air has "right of way" gives butt-heads the opportunity to try to create a right-of way simply by jumping. "I was in the air so I had right-of-way!!" Obviously, that won't work because the friggin' "Take as much as I can get" mindset people will try to capitalize on it and take advantage of it... because they can.



i think deeply and figure out about the kiter in the wave will ride the wave and ride further downwind, so it does not make sense that the red kiter goes downwind of the wave kiter!
Just make the red kiter jibe away from the wave kiter at all, but the downwind should be given to the wave kiter.


Cuz kiter usually control kite at 45% degree during ride on wave and riden furtherdownwind is number one so impossible for red kiter goes downwind of the wave rider so redkiter suppose to control kite at 55% degree to let wave kiter go first than get collision also if redkiter is first time trying at wave and havent skill control at waves to avoid collision
anyway
picture number ten if red kiter is beginner suppose to be right of way when sailboat on wave goes downwind so if they fell down to get injury or and first time try at waves also dont be near sailboat cuz sailboat on wave goes dowind faster than kiter , thanks for patient with us and any comment with new feedback


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:29 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:29 am
Posts: 332
I'm still blown away by the picture of Hel(l). There was actually another kiter out on the same lake with me and 3 windsurfers the other day, and it felt crowded. I'm really spoiled by often being the only one out on the water, with sand beach in both directions as far as the eye can see. I like the rules, though. Wish I could read the text that goes with them.

Don


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: av_dumitrascu, Baidu [Spider], Bille, Bing [Bot], jjm, Yahoo [Bot] and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group