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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:05 am 
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Launching any kite in the wind window in 30 knots is very dangerous , that's all .

Best wishes to the unfortunate kiter .


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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:22 am 
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I'll add my condolences and best wishes for a quick and full recovery. It sounds like a terrible accident.

Remember that we're all just trying to have fun out there so (not to sound too 'po faced' or trite) the 'lessons' of this are to be smart, be safe, and bail if you're in trouble. A kite can be recovered, fixed or replaced far easier than a human. There can be a lot of frustration in walking off a beach without getting to the water but there is no shame.


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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:22 pm 
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Location: Joensuu
FredBGG wrote:
Do you launch your Venoms uninflated?
I always forund that good inflation was neccessary for a smooth launch.
At many locations getting pulled 5m (15ft) can be a problem.


I launch those from taco-position, fill as much as possible in taco position. tips will always stay empty about 1/2 meter. so when kite opens downwind, it start raising slowly and when it fills it goes higher. and best is that it don't have too much pull when it's not full and hangs low.

when I launch venom-19m2 from 1m deep water, it pulls in 8m/s wind so much that I go a bit downwind, but in 1/2m water even 19m2 don't pull me downwind.

I liked that venom-19 launch much more than I like synergy-19 launch, but synergy is better kite otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:25 pm 
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i might try your PL downwind method, always did the usual launching (45° launches) or sometimes assisted when i don t have the space on the ground ( like LEIs covering all the launching area).
in fact , u do the same thing as a relaunch but with the kite less inflated...




i will get some downwind space tho for those tries ( i guess it will be on snow ) because relaunches pulled me a bit fast towards downwind (2-3m on land) in the middle range uses.


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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:29 pm 
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voodoospirit wrote:
i might try your PL downwind method, always did the usual launching (45° launches) or sometimes assisted when i don t have the space on the ground ( like LEIs covering all the launching area).
in fact , u do the same thing as a relaunch but with the kite less inflated...


Yes.

but You can't do that launch with synergy, because synergy must be totally full! if synergy is not totally full, it's tip can clap together -> kite drops, then kite opens and start pulling until it again claps tips and collapses ...

thats the only thing what is worse in synergy than venom, and that is why I have only 19m2 synergy, because I'm too scary to launch smaller synergies that way and it's only way to launch my kites in my "beaches".

when venom is not fully inflated, it just hang low, if it tries to clap tips, you can stop that by pulling backlines(=bar). in synergy that pulling from backlines don't work.


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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:45 pm 
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I feel I need to step in here before to much wrong information goes out.

1) The Synergy launches better underinflated than its predecessors. You have to keep back line tension up until the kite is full enough to fly, but otherwise its far more reliable than the Venoms ever where. The Charger is the same if not better. But mark my words here, launching any of our kites downwind is a dangerous undertaking, and neither I nor Peter Lynn Kiteboarding recommend doing this.

2) I know I am probably the only arcuser who does not advocate launching the kite by yourself in strong winds. I prefer to launch with a Partner inflating and holding the kite. This gives you a similar launch to an LEI, and is much more controlled. Also sometimes its the only option, eg. in Hood River last year when the Sandbank was submerged, I had to have people walk out into the river and inflate my kite there and then launch it LEI style.

3) It's become far to normal nowadays to launch and land your kite by yourself. I am one of those guys who does it far too much and in dangerous situations. I should now better, but I only do it if I really can't find anybody to help me. If there is someone there, I will ask. This "out for myself" attitude is what is getting people killed. So I think that is where the underlying problem is.

--
Gunnar


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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:47 pm 
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gmb13 wrote:
2) I know I am probably the only arcuser who does not advocate launching the kite by yourself in strong winds. I prefer to launch with a Partner inflating and holding the kite. This gives you a similar launch to an LEI, and is much more controlled. Also sometimes its the only option, eg. in Hood River last year when the Sandbank was submerged, I had to have people walk out into the river and inflate my kite there and then launch it LEI style.

3) It's become far to normal nowadays to launch and land your kite by yourself. I am one of those guys who does it far too much and in dangerous situations. I should now better, but I only do it if I really can't find anybody to help me. If there is someone there, I will ask. This "out for myself" attitude is what is getting people killed. So I think that is where the underlying problem is.

--
Gunnar


You make a good point here (point 2).
The assisted launch you are talking about where the assistant hold the kite up in a taco shape and inflates it is a very nice method in strong winds.
When it is well inflated the assistant opens up the taco and releases the top tip, followed by the bottom tip and the kite goes up at the edge of the wind window..
It's particularly nice with small kite when it's blowing really strong and just bending down on the beach will get you a face, mouth and eyes full of sand.

That said you need to have an assistant that knows what he is doing... and when it come to arcs there arn't enough around...

IT's a pitty because the smaller arcs are great high wind kites in experienced hands.

Gunner you should post a video of this type of launch.

You can also do it with some of the flysurfers, However I prefer to lay the kite out just to take a peek at the whole bridal before launching.


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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:00 am 
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FredBGG wrote:
gmb13 wrote:
2) I know I am probably the only arcuser who does not advocate launching the kite by yourself in strong winds. I prefer to launch with a Partner inflating and holding the kite. This gives you a similar launch to an LEI, and is much more controlled. Also sometimes its the only option, eg. in Hood River last year when the Sandbank was submerged, I had to have people walk out into the river and inflate my kite there and then launch it LEI style.

3) It's become far to normal nowadays to launch and land your kite by yourself. I am one of those guys who does it far too much and in dangerous situations. I should now better, but I only do it if I really can't find anybody to help me. If there is someone there, I will ask. This "out for myself" attitude is what is getting people killed. So I think that is where the underlying problem is.

--
Gunnar


You make a good point here (point 2).
The assisted launch you are talking about where the assistant hold the kite up in a taco shape and inflates it is a very nice method in strong winds.
When it is well inflated the assistant opens up the taco and releases the top tip, followed by the bottom tip and the kite goes up at the edge of the wind window..
It's particularly nice with small kite when it's blowing really strong and just bending down on the beach will get you a face, mouth and eyes full of sand.

That said you need to have an assistant that knows what he is doing... and when it come to arcs there arn't enough around...

You can also do it with some of the flysurfers, However I prefer to lay the kite out just to take a peek at the whole bridal before launching.


I reiterate my initial point. While only feeling the utmost sympathy for the rider involved in the accident, it is impossible to avoid the conclusion that THIS accident was partly caused by the type of kite (ram air) used and the requirement/temptation to do downwind launches.

If, as Gunnar states, it IS safer to do assisted launches with ram air kites in high winds, this is a major shortcoming of ram air kites. Very often a partner is not available and it becomes necessary to do a dangerous downwind launch. Solo sand-tip launches with inflatables are still safe. The same can't be said for ram airs.


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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:28 am 
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Tobsters, ANybody home? You've banned many for much less. In fact I can't think of anyone who's flamed more that this dipshit.


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 Post subject: Re: Near fatal accident at sandbanks, poole
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:50 am 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 7:49 am
Posts: 552
My sincere condolences to the kiter and the family. It is always sad when someone gets hurt in our sport.

PMU=Ass and he needs to go crawl back under whatever rock he crawled out of.

As a foil flyer I have safetly self launched and landed foils in winds up to 40 knots. I never use the downwind method of launching except when the wind is really light, under 10 knots and I have plenty of space.

Despite what Ass puts out, foils are no more or less safe than LEI kites, just different, and require a different skill set in certain situations. My friend, normally a foil flyer, got worked and had to let the LEI kite he was flying go yesterday after it went into a death spiral and the safety release did not work properly. It is what it is.

Like Fred said, we all need to be very famliar with our QR and be ready to let the kite go when the shit hits the fan.

All kites are inherently dangerous. For anyone to think there is such as thing as a safe kite is ridiculous. We all need to be safe.


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