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 Post subject: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:32 pm
Posts: 115
The mass per projected area of a kite might be one plausible indicator of the light wind suitability of a kite. below you find a table with some results, ordered from lowest to highest.

Code:
A    - area is in square meters [qm]
pA   - pojected area [qm]
pA/A - efficiency of area use
m    - mass is in [kg]
[b]m/pA - mass per projected qm [/b]
UR   - User Rating of lightwind performance from 0..100%
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Kite                       |   A  |  pA   | pA/A | mass | m/pA  | UR |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Nasawing NPW9b (selfmade10)|  7.0 |  5.6  | 0.8* | 0.450| 0.080 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Nasawing NPW9b (selfmade09)|  6.0 |  4.8  | 0.8* | 0.395| 0.082 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Nasawing NPW9b kitemaker4  |  6.0 |  5.6  | 0.8* | 0.410| 0.085 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Nasawing NPW9b HQ Powerk.  | 15.0 |  5.6  | 0.8* | 1.077| 0.089 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone ULTRALITE Paragl. 09 | 23.0 | 20.16 | 0.88 | 2.85 | 0.141 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Wingine Cooper Ultra Light | 10.2 |  8.67*| 0.85 | 1.56 | 0.18  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Vapor 2009      | 13.4 | 11.63 | 0.87 | 2.109| 0.181 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Vapor 2009      |  9.4 |  8.16 | 0.87 | 1.565| 0.192 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Twister I       |  7.7 |  6.7  | 0.87 | 1.30 | 0.194 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| PeterLynn C-Quad           |  8.5 |  7.2* | 0.85 | 1.40 | 0.194 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| JOJO 28+                   |  2.0 |  1.7  | 0.85 | 0.35 | 0.194 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Vapor 2009      |  6.5 |  5.64 | 0.87 | 1.148| 0.204 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Pansh Ace 2009             | 12.0 | 10.2* | 0.85*| 2.12 | 0.208 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone Yakuza 2008          | 10.0 |  8.5  | 0.85*| 1.778| 0.209 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Flysurfer Speed III deluxe | 15.0 | 12.8  | 0.85 | 2.70 | 0.21  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone Yakuza GT            | 10.0 |  8.5* | 0.85*| 1.815| 0.214 |  90|
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| U-Turn Butan               |  6.5 |  5.84 | 0.90 | 1.255| 0.215 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Flysurfer Outlaw           | 12.0 | 10.3  | 0.86 | 2.30 | 0.22  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| U-Turn Butane 2006         | 11.0 |  9.35 | 0.85*| 2.100| 0.225 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Windart Demon              | 18.0 | 16.8  | 0.93 | 3.8  | 0.226 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Boardriding Maui Cloud 2013| 17.0 | 13.6* | 0.8* | 3.1  | 0.228 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone Yakuza               |  6.0 |  5.1* | 0.85*| 1.17 | 0.229 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Flysurfer Speed III deluxe | 19.0 | 16.2  | 0.85 | 3.75 | 0.232 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| U-Turn ButaneII(new bridle)| 13.5 | 11.48 | 0.85*| 2.659| 0.232 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Reactor II 2009 |  6.9 |  6.01 | 0.87 | 1.394| 0.232 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone Yakuza 2006          |  3.4 |  2.89 | 0.85 | 0.679| 0.235 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone Flow                 |  2.0 |  1.9* | 0.85*| 0.40 | 0.235 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Airush Lithium Zero 2013   | 18.0 | 14.4* | 0.8* | 3.4  | 0.236 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Wingine Cooper  2009       |  4.4 |  3.7  | 0.84 | 0.887| 0.240 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Reactor II 2009 |  4.4 |  3.83 | 0.87 | 0.934| 0.242 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Flysurfer Speed III deluxe | 12.0 | 10.2  | 0.85 | 2.5  | 0.245 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| U-Turn Butan               |  3.5 |  3.14 | 0.90 | 0.775| 0.247 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Wingine Cooper  2009       |  2.1 |  1.8  | 0.86 | 0.446| 0.248 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Flysurfer Pulse II         | 12.0 | 10.3  | 0.86 | 2.6  | 0.25  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| HQ Symphony Speed 2.5      |  1.4*|  1.9* | 0.85*| 0.302| 0.254 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| PKD Buster II 2006         |  3.0 |  2.55*| 0.85 | 0.65 | 0.255 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Flysurfer Psycho IV deluxe |  8.0 |  6.8  | 0.85 | 1.8  | 0.265 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Slingshot Turbine 2012     | 17.0 | 13.6* | 0.8* | 3.7  | 0.272 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone Manta 2              | 12.0 |  8.68 | 0.72 | 2.4  | 0.276 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone Cult 2009            |  6.66|  5.34 | 0.802| 1.48 | 0.277 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| PKD Century II Soulfly 2009| 10.0 |  8.5* | 0.85*| 2.36 | 0.278 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Reactor II 2009 |  2.2 |  1.92 | 0.87 | 0.535| 0.279 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Flysurfer Speed III        | 19.0 | 16.2  | 0.85 | 4.53 | 0.28  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Venom-1         | 19.0 | 13.7  | 0.72 | 3.90 | 0.28  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Gaastra Phoenix            | 25.0 | 17.5* | 0.7  | 5.21 | 0.298 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone Zephyr 2009          | 17.0 | 13.6* | 0.8* | 4.1  | 0.301 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| PKD Century II Soulfly 2009|  2.2 |  1.87*| 0.85*| 0.57 | 0.305 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Epic Infinity V2 2012      | 17.0 | 13.6* | 0.8* | 4.2  | 0.310 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Scorpion 2007   | 16.0 | 11.2  | 0.7* | 3.50 | 0.31  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Venom-1         | 13.0 |  9.1  | 0.70 | 2.85 | 0.31  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Flysurfer Speed III        | 12.0 | 10.2  | 0.85 | 3.18 | 0.31  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone light XC 2009        | 14.0 |  9.8* | 0.7  | 3.1  | 0.316 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Blade Vertigo 2011         | 14.0 | 11.2* | 0.8* | 3.6  | 0.321 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| North Rhino                | 22.5 | 15.75*| 0.7  | 5.09 | 0.323 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| North Dyno 2012            | 17.0 | 13.6* | 0.8* | 4.4  | 0.324 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Zeeko Notus LW 2010        | 14.0 | 10.2  | 0.73 | 3.40 | 0.34  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Wipika Hydro 7  2002*      |  9.5 |  7.0  | 0.74 | 2.40 | 0.34  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Venom-1         |  8.0 |  5.5  | 0.69 | 1.95 | 0.34  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Charger 2010    | 19.0 | 12.0  | 0.63 | 4.1  | 0.341 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Advance Kaiman 200x        | 15.0 | 12.0* | 0.80*| 4.1  | 0.342 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Synergy         | 19.0 | 11.6  | 0.61 | 4.30 | 0.37  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| F-One Bandit III 2010      | 13.0 | 10.4* | 0.8* | 3.85 | 0.370 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Fluidkites Torque2 2009    | 11.0 |  9.2* | 0.8  | 3.63 | 0.39  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Peter Lynn Scorpion 2007   |  7.0 |  4.7  | 0.67 | 1.90 | 0.40  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| F-One Bandit III 2010      | 10.0 |  8.0* | 0.8* | 3.25 | 0.406 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Ozone C4 2010              | 13.0 |  9.1* | 0.7* | 3.7  | 0.407 |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Monkey Griffin 2009        | 14.5 | 10.2* | 0.7  | 4.45 | 0.44  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
| Naish Helix 2009*          | 10.5 |  6.9  | 0.66 | 3.50 | 0.50  |    |
+----------------------------+------+-------+------+------+-------+----+
* some data not available, thus roughly estimated from construction principle

User rating from KL of light-wind performance, sorted in percent:

99: Yakuza 17m²
95: Yak 14
92: Yak 12
90: Yak Gt 10
87: Vampir Race 10,5
85: FS Speed² 15
80: Yak 8,6
79: Psycho4 12
78: PL Venom 16
77: PL Synergy 15
74: FS Psycho³ 13
72: FS Pulse² 10
70: Takoon Scoop² 11
60: Yak 6
40: Yak 4
38: PL Venom 8
28: Cult 3,5
18: Cult 2,5
10: IMP 1,5




please take out your kitchen scale and post your kite's data !! i will update the table above.


Last edited by herculon on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:12 am, edited 31 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:27 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:10 pm
Posts: 475
How do you figure out the projected area?


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 Post subject: Re: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:31 am 
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Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 3:38 am
Posts: 3148
Location: Malibu
Some kite maker publish their projected area.

Most prefer not to. :wink:

However with the Psycho 4 and Speed 3s the projected area is variable due to the way the canopy goes from flatter to more c-shape.


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 Post subject: Re: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:03 am 
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 7:01 am
Posts: 172
Location: Joensuu
peter lynn synergy 19m2, area 19m2, pa 11.6, weight 4.3kg = 0.37
peter lynn venom-1 8m2, 8m2, pa 5,5, w 1.95kg = 0.34
venom-1 13m2, 13m2, pa 9.1, w 2.85kg = 0.31
venom-1 19m2, 19m2, pa 13.7, w 3.9kg = 0.28

pa:s from manufacturer. but I don't believe those pa:s! synergy 19 and venom-1 19 is same size when you put those on top of each other. how pa could be so different?

in reality 19 synergy have same low-end as 19 v-1 and better top-end.

those pa:s can be as much incorrect as areas, so you really can't trust those.


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 Post subject: Re: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:59 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:35 am
Posts: 1695
The ratio of projected area to flat area is fairly consistent:

Kite_________________Flat_Projected_Ratio
peter_lynn_synergy___19m2__11.6_____1.64
peter_lynn_venom-1____8m2__5.5_____1.45
venom-1____________13m2__9.1_____1.43
venom-1____________19m2__3.7_____1.39

I doubt if a ratio of weight to projected area would properly measure light wind performance. It's too simplistic.


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 Post subject: Re: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:00 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:32 pm
Posts: 115
@Ismo: thanks alot for your data!! how did you weigh your kites? can you suggest a good scale?

@OzBungy: of course, its just a slight indication if a kite might have lightwind abilities at all. if it is so heavy per sqm like my helix, you can take it for granted, that it simply will drop out of the sky in a lull.


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 Post subject: Re: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:32 pm
Posts: 115
added wipika hydro 7 (not bad currently) and a jojo28+.
who has more tube weights ? is there some manufacturer that prints the weight of their tubekites in their technical specifications?


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 Post subject: Re: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1753
Location: Miami @ 6" Flat Butter!
I just received my Speed3 yesterday put on a precision scale & posted at Kite weight:
DrLightWind wrote:
Flysurfer
15m SPEED3-DELUXE EDITION
Only Canopy: 2.7 kg (6.0 lbs)
Canopy and Bar with Lines: 3.6 kg (8.0 lbs)
A/R: 6.0

Also Fluidkites Torque2 11m (UltraFlat)
Weight Canopy: 8 lbs

PS. I saw somewhere the weight of 17m Zephyr is 5 kg if it's true for your request at the other thread.
I'd like to see the figures on this.

I think what you're doing is the static wing loading, which is very important in light wind.
Congratulation for doing this, for the benefit of everybody :thumb:

DrLW


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 Post subject: Re: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 3:38 am
Posts: 3148
Location: Malibu
Where the weight is also makes a bit difference when it comes to ease of use in low winds.

LEIs are front heavy while Flysurfers and Peter Lynn kites have their weight evenly distributed
from leading edge to trailing edge.

Also another imprtant difference is the weight of the air in a kite.
In a foil it is not compressed (well very very slightly)... this makes it neutral.
In a LEI the air is pretty compressed rendering it heavier than the surroundine air.
Not sure how much this would add, but whatever amount it is it's also adding to the uneven weight distribution.

This uneven weight distribution is a particular pain in the ass when it comes to body dragging in light wind.


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 Post subject: Re: weight / projected area = onepossible light wind indicator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 5625
Location: Denmark
The weight of the kites are interesting in other respects, but for "light wind" perfomance, I cant see any relevance whatsoever !

You and your kiteboard and kite weigh around 85 to 90kg in average.

So a difference of a few kg's wont make any noticable difference at all !

If you are talking about relaunching and dynamic performance when turned around hard, it is another issue - but we are talking about light wind performance only, right ?

I am 100% sure that the mass wont make much difference, regarding KITING in light wind.

Of course, if we are talking about how low you can go with a kite, flown on LAND only, the mass is of real importance, true :thumb:

Kindly, Peter Frank


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