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 Post subject: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2003 1:00 am
Posts: 703
Flysurfer ram air lovers keep spreading misinformation about the light wind performance of their kites. Inflatables are better than ram airs in light winds because:

1) Excessive drag (bridles, lack of internal rigidity), compromising the Lift/Drag ratio
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2349064
2) VERY slow turning
3) Inertia. The Speed 2 19 contains over 11kg of air in its pockets, compared to about 3kg in the largest inflatables.
4) Wind dropouts and gear failure
--EVERYONE experiences a few gear failures (eg broken lines) and COMPLETE wind dropouts every year. You're usually safe with an inflatable. It can be used to "self-rescue" or you can swim in with the kite. If things go REALLY bad, you can just use the inflatable structure to support your weight.
--ALL ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged after 45 minutes - unlaunchable and certainly unable to support your body weight.
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2346569
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2358958&p=608890#p608890
eg viewtopic.php?t=2359156&p=617396
-- The following is an example of "diraklib's" experience with ram airs in wind dropouts: "the SA-19 is huge and can whack you silly if you let it get down wind of you in a low wind launch. It is downright scary - be ready with the QR at all times if not up and riding!!! I can't say I agree with claims that you can ride the SA-19 in anything lower than a steady 8 knots. I made a personal choice to not ride the SA-19 any more. It went down twice in lulls and managed to bow-tie on the way down - there was no way to relaunch. I was not as lucky as others that self rescued. My kite was full of water by the time I dragged my very tired and frustrated a$$ to shore. It sounds simple, "wrap the lines around the bar, fold the kite in half, roll it up on your board and paddle in"... noooo... there are lines everywhere under water that wrap around your feet as you are trying to manipulate the kite. You just pray that a gust won't pop the kite up and slice of an appendage. The kite ... is just too scary when it goes down. My attitude now is - if my LEI won't fly, I shouldn't be on the water. Anyone interested in a slightly used SA2-19m??? Cheap???" For the full admission, checkout the following link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2360979&start=40
5) 8 KNOT LIMIT
-- Despite what ram lovers tell you, you won't really have fun on any kite (ram air OR inflatable) unless the wind is over about 8 knots. This is the starting point for BOTH ram airs and inflatables, but because of the reasons I've outlined above, inflatables are vastly superior. And this is just the starting point. You won't really be having fun until it hits about 10 knots on an inflatable OR a ram air.
- Ram lovers are prone to exaggeration and just plain misinformation about light winds, eg see the following thread: Ram airs jump 8m in 8 knots ("The future is bright, the future is foil") https://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php ... &view=next
6) Objective Testing
-- A variety of kites were tested in light wind conditions in San Diego a few years ago viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2319439&hilit=ram+airs+crash+in+san+diego . Despite the ridiculous over-hyped claims from Flysurfer reps like Ted Bautista, Flysurfer ram air kites crashed and burned. The overall consensus was that Flysurfer ram air kites are ok in light wind, but they turn VERY SLOWLY. The overall impression was that there are much better inflatables. It's interesting that a lot of the ram air guys who were excited about this showdown were remarkably SILENT afterwards, in particular, Ted Bautista, the U.S. rep for Flysurfer. His alpha-male chest-beating rants in the lead up to this showdown almost defied belief.
For an example of the LIES that ram lovers tell about their kites, checkout viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2350141&p=539227#p539227

7: BRIDLE TANGLES & FAILURES
Bridle tangles are disturbingly common with ram airs. Check this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2354115&start=30
In particular, note the statement by "schmoe" that goes: "A bridle tangle on flysurfer can mean that you do not go out... For me I had many lost hours where the wind is cranking because of the bridles. I rather inflate 5 tubes and know that the setup time is exactly 10 minutes, no more no less, than have setup time that is 70% 5 minutes and 30% an hour. And now with one pump, the setup time of a tube is less, so it is not an advantage of the foil anymore."
Ram air bridle tangles can be very dangerous. A lot of riders have reported how their ram airs caught seaweed in their bridles, causing their kites to wineglass and spin out of control.

Bridle breakages occur surprisingly frequently with ram airs. They can be expensive (US $500 plus) (eg see the thread titled "Flysurfer Warrior Exploding:" phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4612 ) .

8) Surf conditions
-- While it is always a gamble if your kite gets caught by a wave after dropping it in light winds, at least you've got a fighting chance if it is an inflatable. If it is a ram air, it's all over.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the exaggerations. Flysurfer ram air kites are aerodynamically inferior compared to inflatables in light winds


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:19 am
Posts: 592
Location: Fuerteventura
Welcome back dude. :lol:

I was wondering if you where still alive.

Again, a very detailed propaganda rant. Where do you find the time? :lol:

Please let me know which Kite you use that will allow me to get out in less than 5 knots.

My Speed 3 19 DL gives up under 5 knots, so if you could please let me know about a flying tyre that will outdo my Speed3 please let me know :rollgrin:

--
Gunnar


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:37 am
Posts: 1050
Location: France
PMU does not own any kite.
PMU does not kitesurf.
PMU is not human.
PMU is a automatic program that generate posts autonomously.
Unfortunately for us, the programmer who developped PMU left his previous job and until now no one in the IT departement has bother to start a find and destroy mission on this program.


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:52 am
Posts: 1186
Location: Thailand
PMU, might be a bot, as many suggest; but if he not, he hasn't got a clue of what he is talking about. Unless he actually tried a FS kite (if he ever did, it should date back from 2003 or even before), his opinion is just garbage. Objectivity demands hands on experience.

"Foil lovers" have the merit of having overcome the barrier of unfounded prejudice foil kites have suffered from, and actually bothered to try, test and compare to make a fair judgement.

But now the tide is rapidly changing in favour of foil kites and it starts to be cool to be seen riding Speeds and other Psychos, to the greatest despair of PMU... :cry:

Remember PMU: any publicity, good or bad, is publicity. Flysurfer is very thankful and should reward you accordingly.

PS: all PMU's so called arguments can easily be rebuked. But a blind man who doesn't want to see will never see.


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:09 am
Posts: 123
Location: Cape Charles, Virginia
My experiences with a 13m Flysurfer Speed (170 pound rider):

Nothing will get you going, with power, in lighter wind.

It's not as much fun as flying your 15m or 16m LEI, but you are kiting, which is more fun than sitting on the couch.

They hold air way, way longer than necessary to relaunch. It's simply not an issue and reverse relaunching is very quick and easy. I never had to do a self-rescue though. If you frequently put yourself in a position where using your kite as a life raft could save your life, then it may not be the right kite.

The feel is different than riding an LEI, so it will take some time to get dialed in.

Bridles are not an issue until you get tangled in seaweed, etc. That sucks.

Set up time is fast, but not as fast as most foil kiters think. Much of the saved time is simply because foil kiters typically leave their bar connected to their kite at all times. If you left your bar connected to your LEI at all times, you would save that same few minutes to walk out lines, connect them to your kite, etc.

While setup time isn't much of an issue, the physical effort is much less than when pumping up a big LEI. So when the wind is marginal and you're not sure if you're going to have enough to kite anyway, it's not such a bummer to set up a Speed and then have to roll it back up compared to the pain of pumping up a big LEI and then having to roll it back up.

In the end, it just depends on what the winds are like where you live and whether you are getting enough of your kite fix without a foil. I enjoyed a Speed for a season, but then I got a Spleene Session. That, paired with a 16m LEI, is more fun for me than the Speed and allows me to get just enough of my kite fix. Recently, I have thought about pulling that Speed out again to see just how low I can go with the Session. I suppose I could always use more kiting. And if I lived somewhere else, with lighter winds, then I wouldn't hesitate to jump back on the Speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:57 am
Posts: 54
PMU - if you are going to quote someone - do so completely. I had positive things to say about the FS SA-19. I also attributed my difficulties to pilot error and inexperience. To set the record straight - the entirety of my post is below. Whatever credibility you may have had has been lost - you are a bottom feeder, an ambulance chaser.

I learned on "LEI's and then wanted to max my time on the water and got a FS SA-2 19m. I was amazed at how it pulled when apparent wind built up. It definitely goes where the LEI's I have will not fly. That said, the SA-19 is huge and can whack you silly if you let it get down wind of you in a low wind launch. It is downright scary - be ready with the QR at all times if not up and riding!!! I will also say that when I got it, I was beginner/intermediate kiting in a place where no one else had tried a foil. I had no advice except off of foilzone - very helpful by the way. I can't say I agree with claims that you can ride the SA-19 in anything lower than a steady 8 knots. At least, I couldn't keep it in the air. I made a personal choice to not ride the SA-19 any more. It went down twice in lulls and managed to bow-tie on the way down - there was no way to relaunch. I was not as lucky as others that self rescued. My kite was full of water by the time I dragged my very tired and frustrated a$$ to shore. It sounds simple, "wrap the lines around the bar, fold the kite in half, roll it up on your board and paddle in"... noooo... there are lines everywhere under water that wrap around your feet as you are trying to manipulate the kite. You just pray that a gust won't pop the kite up and slice of an appendage. The kite works fantastic when it is flying, but is just too scary when it goes down. I will say that relaunch was possible and reliable when the kite went down backwards or with LEI down - no issues there. But if the kite twisted, I was dead in the water. I am sure alot has to do with not having access to resident foil riders and the fact that I wasn't that experienced to start with. My attitude now is - if my LEI won't fly, I shouldn't be on the water. I just don't have the ability to make the foil work and am now too apprehensive to keep trying. It's not about the kite - it's the rider. Are you the type of rider that's willing to commit, do you have other foil flyers at your beach that can help you out?


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:50 pm
Posts: 353
Isn't PooMu a kind of cow manure? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:46 pm
Posts: 83
Aaaaaaah, che palle....

A coso, ma te nun c'hai 'n cazzo da fa che veni' qua a rompe li cojoni??

Ma perché 'n' te la vai a pija' 'nder culo?
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:26 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:22 am
Posts: 1266
Location: PBKiteboarding.com Sales-Repair-Lessons Ozone, Aboards, Flysurfer, OR, Canada USA Worlwide
Thought I'd throw down a bit of fun on the SP3 19m and 12m here...
Too much fun for many of us.... :)

I fly foils and LEI's and sell both... something for everyone out there...
We are lucky to have all these choices... Whatever works.... is good!
Kite more Smile More :)



And here saving my day here on the SP3 19m:



A fast Speed 3 12m... ton of power and turns fast enough for Kite Loops...
Still light to medium winds:



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 Post subject: Re: Flysurfer & Light Winds
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:00 am
Posts: 467
gmb13 wrote:
Welcome back dude. :lol:

I was wondering if you where still alive.

Again, a very detailed propaganda rant. Where do you find the time? :lol:

Please let me know which Kite you use that will allow me to get out in less than 5 knots.

My Speed 3 19 DL gives up under 5 knots, so if you could please let me know about a flying tyre that will outdo my Speed3 please let me know :rollgrin:

--
Gunnar



5 knots now!!! WOW that is great

6-8 upwind and jumping apparently nowdays!!!!! Brilliant

So howcome all the dorks on dorkzone are claiming the speed 2 to still have the better lowend to a point of non-measureable difference before complete loss of interest.

Odd because the speed 2 was never able to do that low either.

you must small, full of hot air and pi$$. thats not too aryan now is it?



So how exactly is PMU wrong with his "dont believe the lies etc..." ??

Gunner /Fuerte .....who would have thought eh!


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