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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:30 am 
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SBBeachbum wrote:
ktouhey wrote:

But it also means that joe average is at a point now where he/she can go out and buy a current race board without it being obsolete in 10 days. Sure, new fins will help a bunch, but as a consumer it is easier to wrap your head around the idea of buying a board that might last you 2 or 3 years, given that you'll have the option to upgrade as required/desired.


Right on. That hit the nail on the head.

@Fred: There is always a certain bodytype that has an edge for a given sport. Nobody in the NBA e.g. will lower the height of the baskets just so that a 4'11 guy can dunk the ball.


The example of lowering the basket is not relevant. The Course the racers have to do is the equivalent of the target.

The idea of limiting board size would be more comparable to banning Shaquil O'Niel from basketball because he is to big.

True though there will always be a body type that will be ideal for a given sport, but in the case of kite racing size should be able to be compensated for freedom of gear.

What I don't get is why so many of you guys are scared of board size or a bit of freedom in the sport, especailly with it being so young.....


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:37 am 
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Gebi wrote:
My brother FredBGG,

Sky Solback is the biggest guy racing consistently in Pro races and he is just over 200 pounds. Sky you care to comment as your the big guy on tour....?

At 70 cm wide I would guess he will be switching down in size of board in medium winds as well, but just my guess. So the 70cm measurement is "Plenty wide.

Sky was using a Paolo Rista Tri fin at or around 58cm wide at the Worlds in Corpus where I raced as well. Sky was matching angle and speed upwind with Damo and Adam in our lightest wind races, (lighter than 10 knots) races so I don't think the size of the board was such an issue for him. If he needed a wider board 2 to 4 cm wider in width would be enough to bring him up to having the same power in platform as the lighter racers. His board was already the thickest being raced. This gives him another 6cm in width to play with in the future....thats a lot!


200lbs......

Plenty of potential riders weigh much more than that. While your proposed rule may leave enough wiggly room for a 200 lb rider what about someone weighing 260 lbs.

If a rider is free to choose whatever kite size he or she wants then he or she should be free to choose and experiment with any board size.

If big boards don't work they will go away by themselves.... :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:20 am 
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Location: Montreal-Canada-Cabarete-Cuba
Hola. Impossible to win on the water at this time until someone can stop the production methods for a ''single champiom''
Please, take a quick solution and fast because many are waiting on shore!
Thanks.
Starkites.Pro rider.William Acosta
Gebi wrote:
I think we very much agree that the biggest improvements in light air racing will come from the kites that are tuned for light air; as their light air performance can be improved a lot.

The Box rule Alex and I are discussing is only to limit the overall width of the board. This "Box Rule Measurement" Class is not one design, it just sets a reasonable limit on a measurement that the top designers and riders feel is actually a direction we do not need to go crazy on, right now. Right now the discussion is on finding a reasonable board width for our IKA racing class.

This rule can be changed in the future, if custom board development proves that we need to go wider, to move the performance of the sport forward; then this can be incorporated, but leaving it free for all for manufacturers, does not make it easy to get people into the sport, as Alex so eloquently expressed before.

At this time, it may be proven that this measurement of 70cm is a valid limit (mainly needed and optimally working only in light air) and would not need to be wider. If we go wider we will have to race with two boards, a super light air wide board; that works slightly better in 10 knots or less; and then a regular sized board for 10 knots and up. Basically we would use the 69 cm board pictured above, with a 16 meter kite or larger, and switch down in board and kite size once we get to a solid 10 knots. This idea still needs to be tested, and only time will tell if we can ride wider boards in say 15 knots and above. On the Pro Tour now the typical winning boards are right around 58cm wide. This is enough for top riders to even beat the wider boards in light wind. But development of board designs, refined rocker lines and tuned fin set ups will push the performance forward as usual.

Right now the main improvement needed for racing are for kite designs to improve their performance in light air. (kites need to reliably relaunch in less than 6 to 8 knots), as now in racing in 8 knots or less if you drop your kite, your racing is usually finished; as normally you cannot water relaunch in less than 6 to 8 knots. I have raced in numerous light are Pro Races where where the fleet was racing in around 4 to 6 knots of wind, but if your kite is dropped the racing is over for you.

Lighter kites, with specific design ideas incorporating some of the benefits of foils for example is a direction the sports designers and testers need to pushed into developing. Don't worry there are a few of us doing this work now....

If IKA decided to vote on a "board width limitation" I would push for a 70 cm width as our starting point for developing our box rule class measurements. Right now IKA for racing only has a limit on the length of the lines (45 meter max) and a limit on fin length (50cm). I think this class has plenty of room to develop within these limitations, even if the 70 cm (or something close) in the max width rule is incorporated in our class rules.

Stay wet, Mike "Gebi" Gebhardt
IKA Committee Member trying to get Kitesurf Racing in the 2016 Olympics


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:43 am 
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I think smaller riders deserve equal consideration.

eg. What has happened to 2009 World Champion Sean Farley? He weighs 72 kg. I would like to hear from a lightweight rider's perspective if they are disadvantaged with the wider boards and bigger fins because they cannot hold the power that a heavier rider can. I remember an interview where Sean said it was more critical to him to be exactly powered correctly, whereas a heavier rider can cope with being overpowered better.

In Windurf Slalom racing, on 85cm (maximum) boards, Finian Maynard was 2nd in the 2009 PWA World Championship series and he weighs 258 lbs. Lightweight riders are not competitive in that series - 1st rider was 209 lbs and 3rd was 231lbs.


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:48 am 
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ronnie wrote:
I think smaller riders deserve equal consideration.

eg. What has happened to 2009 World Champion Sean Farley? He weighs 72 kg. I would like to hear from a lightweight rider's perspective if they are disadvantaged with the wider boards and bigger fins because they cannot hold the power that a heavier rider can. I remember an interview where Sean said it was more critical to him to be exactly powered correctly, whereas a heavier rider can cope with being overpowered better.

In Windurf Slalom racing, on 85cm (maximum) boards, Finian Maynard was 2nd in the 2009 PWA World Championship series and he weighs 258 lbs. Lightweight riders are not competitive in that series - 1st rider was 209 lbs and 3rd was 231lbs.


Sean Farley, Adam Koch, Abel Lago, Damien Leroy, Andrew Koch, Jesse and Shawn Richman, Julien Kerneur, Bruno Sroka, Michael Gebhardt, Johnny Heineken, Chip Wasson, Cameron Biehl, Blazeg Ozog, Gunnar Biniasch.. and so on.... Most Top Riders are lighter, fit guys. And they all kill it in high winds on huge boards and big fins. Obviously, in light winds their advantage over heavier riders is even bigger. So they are not disavantaged at all, imho.

On the other side heavier riders (like myself, at 187 lb) do not feel like we might need anything wider than 70 cm. There's lots of room to play yet with fins, kites, volume and different shapes while staying within the 70 cm. max. width

So, again: YES to Alex :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Gebi,

My board is about 28" wide. I am a American so my metric conversions are a little off... :cry:

Anyways I had the biggest board in the fleet at the Worlds and Puerto Rico. Without a kite sponsor and having to spend all my loot on my board I would be super bummed if she the MUD MARLIN did not measure in :oops: I built her for Texas and everything is bigger in Texas :thumb: With that being said I am still a fan of a width rule, but all I can ask is to make it 75cm. :thumb: That way I am good to go with my current equipment. :roll: My board still feels to small for my fat ass :lol: See you on the race course. :bye:

Chicken Loop


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:37 pm 
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kakanala wrote:
ronnie wrote:
I think smaller riders deserve equal consideration.

eg. What has happened to 2009 World Champion Sean Farley? He weighs 72 kg. I would like to hear from a lightweight rider's perspective if they are disadvantaged with the wider boards and bigger fins because they cannot hold the power that a heavier rider can. I remember an interview where Sean said it was more critical to him to be exactly powered correctly, whereas a heavier rider can cope with being overpowered better.

In Windurf Slalom racing, on 85cm (maximum) boards, Finian Maynard was 2nd in the 2009 PWA World Championship series and he weighs 258 lbs. Lightweight riders are not competitive in that series - 1st rider was 209 lbs and 3rd was 231lbs.


Sean Farley, Adam Koch, Abel Lago, Damien Leroy, Andrew Koch, Jesse and Shawn Richman, Julien Kerneur, Bruno Sroka, Michael Gebhardt, Johnny Heineken, Chip Wasson, Cameron Biehl, Blazeg Ozog, Gunnar Biniasch.. and so on.... Most Top Riders are lighter, fit guys. And they all kill it in high winds on huge boards and big fins. Obviously, in light winds their advantage over heavier riders is even bigger. So they are not disavantaged at all, imho.

On the other side heavier riders (like myself, at 187 lb) do not feel like we might need anything wider than 70 cm. There's lots of room to play yet with fins, kites, volume and different shapes while staying within the 70 cm. max. width

So, again: YES to Alex :thumb:


187 lbs is not a heavy rider. Of course 70cm wide will keep you happy.

The truth of the matter is that freedom of board design threatens average weight riders that are the majority of the sport and they want to keep it that way and make life simpler for them and some manufacturers.

Some of you are whinning about people having loads of boards ... one for ultra low wind, one for a few more knots and then a high wind one. Well if that's your problem why arn't you asking to limit the amount of boards a rider can have.... something I would be against too. It stiffles development.

If they go ahead with this board size limitation I wonder how soon the IKA will follow up with other BS like the LPGA suspending players that did not speak enough English becasue it upset sponsors and the snobs that run the LPGA. OR that swimming federation that banned a girl with a malformed foot claiming that it would be hummiliating for her to limp to the podium if she were to win. She came in second at an international long distance race though she could not compete officially.

Everyone here that is OK with the limitation of board width is OK with it becasue it suits them. With one guy just begging for 75cm and calling himself a big rider while just 187 lbs.

All of this is one of the reasons why I don't like competitions. Orgs run by fat unhealthy snobs (not refering to kiteracing.... but it's getting there), actually run for the sponsors rather than the atheletes.. making rules that stiffle the sport and keep it in the hands of who is already there.
The Olympics used to be something special, but now they are over run by proffessional players.

That is why my preference goes to people like Ben Wilson, Dave Rastovitch and Len10... no more competitions.... freeriders...

Diddn't the IKA ban some riders for also competing in other organizations.


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:38 pm 
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at 6'5", 245lbs I pretty much represent the extreme example, but would still favor a box rule.

Question: Other than the 'big dude' thing, does anyone have thought why NOT to limit to a box rule?


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:31 pm 
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Chicken Loop wrote:
Gebi,

My board is about 28" wide. I am a American so my metric conversions are a little off... :cry:

Anyways I had the biggest board in the fleet at the Worlds and Puerto Rico. Without a kite sponsor and having to spend all my loot on my board I would be super bummed if she the MUD MARLIN did not measure in :oops: I built her for Texas and everything is bigger in Texas :thumb: With that being said I am still a fan of a width rule, but all I can ask is to make it 75cm. :thumb: That way I am good to go with my current equipment. :roll: My board still feels to small for my fat ass :lol: See you on the race course. :bye:

Chicken Loop


Chicken Loop,

28 inches is 71.12 centimeters

Andrew Koch
Team Fluid


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:11 pm 
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Hmm.

I'm no physics expert, but I think maybe "big guy big board big kite big fins" is theoretically faster than "small guy small board small kite small fins".

Same as it is with windsurfing, if not more so, since there's less physical constraint on how big you can build a kite than how big you can build a windsurf sail. Plus the ability to sine the kite for power gets rid of some of the slow-acceleration probs that big windsurfers have in lighter winds.

With the bigger guy and bigger setup the gusts and chop are probably evened out more, and the guy's tallness probably gives more leverage, too. Kinda like huge multi-hull sailboats are faster in ocean races than small multi-hull sailboats.

Maybe the anxiety to quickly implement a box rule is to keep huge guys on huge boards and kites from coming in and dominating the class? Shaquille O'Neal on a 30 meter kite and 85 cm wide board with 60 cm fins kicking everyone's ass?

-James


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