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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:20 pm 
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stefaans wrote:
NO hell NO. sure if you make it 100cm same as windsurfing. If you put a 70cm rule on those guys back in the day they would have never been able to do what they are doing today.
I am sure tons of arguement been heard on this forum but I'm not going back to all that just casting my vote.

NO on limitations!!!!!!! you might need that 100cm whan you are racing in 4kts in 2016



But 100cm is a limitation. Isn't it ?

After that, somebody will say...lets make the boards 150 wide. Or mabe 2 m. Why not put an engine on raceboards. Did i say engine? Yeah, but what kind of engine ? Horsepower ? How much horsepower?

Boards 60 cm wide, with the right fins (and bottom) are more than enough. Even for the big guys.
Kitesurfing is not windsurfing.


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Your arguements are horrible, their all because "you said so". Oh yeah and I have seen many incredibly smart people say something is "more than enought" to only be proven wrong soon after.

I had this conversation with one of the best disigners 2 to 3 years ago while he was testing board and at that point they were runnning at 22". he said he built a couple boards bigger but believes 22" is the max you can go. That same guy released a board tis year much wider than 22"


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:59 pm 
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Wawando wrote:
I agree, put limits, 70cm seems huge.
FredBGG wrote:
...You still have not given an expanation as to why limiting boards size will attract more people to the spot?...

Because:
1) until then any board you buy today will be trash in 1 year.
2) what makes competition addictiveness is the feeling that the gear is not THE influence factor in the results, but the rider.




Neither of your points have any logic if the gear is not limited to one kite model and one board model.

Even with the narrow minded dumb size limitation wouldn't specila materials and hull designs make a difference.

It really boiuls down to one thing... the manufacturers want to control the sport.... for convenience.

It would be like having soccer ball and soccer shoe manufacturers regulate soccer.


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:45 pm 
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my $0.02 ...in short, a box-rule is a good thing.

for reference, I'm 6'5" and about 235-240lbs. so having an 'unlimited' class might benefit me more than others. But still, a box rule is a good thing IMO.

Alright, we all want the racing part of the sport to grow. That takes two things - more racers and more money.

It's a bit of a cyclical argument, but consider this... in unlimited, a rider might have 2 or 3 boards to chose from depending on the wind. In really light wind, he'll take a super wide board; stronger, narrower, and so on. But those boards are really expensive. Only a very small minority can afford one, let alone many.

Now consider joe-average, who might think racing is cool but hasn't bought a board yet because he's afraid of the cost to entry and it being outdated in a few months. So lets say you put a limit on the board width - that shifts the development focus on hull shape and fins. It also means that you don't need 2 or 3 boards to be competitive. Just one good one, because the goal of that board is to be a great compromise of performance in all conditions. = lower $$$ barrier to entry, which will help bring in new riders + keep the current ones.
So now joe-average can buy a board and at least "FEEL" like he can be competitive (sure.. maybe he needs to upgrade fins, and maybe one board is marginally better than another, but at least it's SAFER to go and buy a board now).
This means also that a production brand can now make a production board without the risk that no one will buy it. Conversely, the production boards have more lifespan so people WILL buy them. This then infuses more money in to the racing side of the sport, more riders join in, and the brands put more resources behind it. Then it sort of cycles along further.

There will be plenty of differences in the boards' designs, but now they become all generally the same size, so the development focus is more on the shape itself and again the fins. But development it not halted by any means, it is just controlled and paced so as to be conducive to growth of the sport.
So production board annual cycles now match up with development cycles and a good board will be a good board for at least a year. But that also gives each manufacturer a year to develop and test new ideas.
If there is a radical new development, a box rule can always be modified.

I think cutting edge and constant development is very cool and exciting, but right now there isn't enough money in to the sport to support the current rate. It will become more and more specialized, and eventually fade if this continues to extremes. The alternative is to find a healthy balance between mass appeal and innovation so as to bring in the big players and their resources. But aligning these processes in sync is just as important as each individual process.

If board development is paced, and the big boys get involved, AND the racing side of the sport grows as a result, you can be damn sure that will in turn be reflected in kite development as well ...all for the better. So instead of being a niche of a niche sport, why not be a major component?

anyone else agree???


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:54 pm 
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FredBGG, why does it only apply with one board and kite? That doesn't make sense. There are different sizes of riders and wind strengths. Limiting the number of boards and kites per competition makes sense.

For competition to scale up in number of riders, rules are healthy either for financial reasons, or for competitive sake.

This only applies competition/racing sports where gear plays a important rule. Soccer reference doesn't make any sense in this discussion.


Last edited by Wawando on Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:47 am 
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instead of a box rule, which penalizes the heavyweights in lightwinds, what about a ratio rule like:

board width(cm) shall not exceed 2/3rds the rider's weight(in full gear) in kilograms.[or whatever in imperial!]

in minor events you can just take it on trust, and in major events policing it is easy, just needs some scales and a tape measure!

obviously it is not in the rider's interest to cut it too fine, as otherwise a large breakfast and wet-wetsuit might push you over the edge of the rule. But this is good in that it takes the focus off trying to nail the ratio exactly, except for the world championship guys who can have umpteen boards or wahtever sourced for them.

anyway, just tossin this out there, i expect it will probably get shotdown for some "impracticality" reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:13 pm 
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When only talking about a max rule it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. You would also have to implement a mihn width rule then too.

say you make the max 22" and you weight 220 this will be your lhigh and mid wind board. for a guy at 120 this will be his lightwind board and ge can still go ahead and get himself a 20" and 18" board where the 220 guy is screwed when it gets light.
Forget about these stupid rules you guys are trying to implement. The worst thing in competition is if one side always has and advantage over the other. NEEDS TO BE FAIR. forget about the money.
The way to resolve this issue is to have 2 fleets. one design and open classs!!! If you are a one board guy then go at it nothing ever changes but if you are more of a push the limits kind of guy the develop and go fawster and faster.


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:24 am 
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If super wide boards are so good at going upwind but are not that much fun to ride, why not change the race course a bit and increase the fraction of the time racers spend on a high speed beam reach. While riding at high speeds and with a lot of tight jibes a super wide board is not the ticket and without imposing any rules the current board dimensions will probably just stay where they are.

There are tons of variations, below is a so called M-course, adapted from
http://www.mordiallocsc.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/mordiallocsc/downloads/Sailing/SailingInstructions2010-2011V2.pdf
(picture scaled horizontally at 200% to emphasize that the downwind course is not too far off the wind)

Pros:
- reasonable board dimensions: medium wide boards are best for speed and control
- spectators can easily tell who's in front and who's overtaking
- higher board speed, more fun to watch
- lot's of action at the buoys

Cons:
- lots of scary stuff at the buoys...
- more bouys to setup


Attachments:
M course.jpeg
M course.jpeg [ 9.69 KIB | Viewed 891 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Looks like the limitations are in place now:

http://www.internationalkiteboarding.or ... Itemid=103


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 Post subject: Re: Yes, Put limits on width of Raceboards ASAP!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:22 pm 
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Location: Portugal - Guincho; Rebel2012 5m, 9m & 2011 7m; Amundson 5'9&6'
Quote:
To introduce an equipment division for racing through the championship rules with the following limitations:
- Max length: 190 cm
- Max width: 70 cm
- Max Fin length: 50cm
- Minimum weight for directional boards: 4 kg (without fins and straps)
- Max number of boards to be used in one event:  1
- Max number of kites to be used in one event:  3
- Max size of kite: 19 sqm
- Min number of equipment to be registered for production status: 50

Result: Approved with amendments (20 approve / 0 reject / 0 defer / 0 abstain)

The amendments for 1 board and 3 kites as well as minimum weight have been brought in through the subsequent submissions 10, 11 and 17.

The main concern around the table was for a healthy grow of the racing fleets, which means bringing the costs down for equipment and travel for the “normal” not sponsored rider which resulted in a further limitation in the number of equipment to be registered per event


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