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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:22 am 
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Pump me up wrote:
The fact is that ram airs become progressively less rideable and more dangerous as the wind picks up. Because they lack internal rigidity, they have the following problems in high winds:
1) Tendency to collapse asymmetrically in gusty conditions, often leading to explosive openings in the middle of the wind window.
2) Tendency to surge to the edge of the window, luff, and collapse.
3) Tendency to sit deeper in the window, making them harder to depower and use edging to control power.


Oh rubbish. You couldn't be more wrong if you insisted the moon is made of green cheese.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:24 am 
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The fact is that new FS got "triple depower" which allows you to ride in high winds (not storm,hurricane etc.) which means they are more safe then few years ago.
The other fact is in gusty and sudden drop wind conditions the foil kite doesn't fall from sky like the tube one... specially in 10 - 20 knots day ...


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:07 am 
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Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Epic, OR, Mystic.
Tone wrote:
crash&burn wrote:
Quote:
How would a comparable foil react to the 55 knot gusts my kite was getting blasted with?


no way on earth that he was ever out in 55knots.


why Tone, does the wind not blow that hard? The picture I posted was taken of me on 10/26/10
graph for that day
Image

here is a pic of the system that produced the wind
Image

here is the next day, we drove around Lake MI to position ourselves to get it again
Image

Image
my buddy on a 4m
Image

I guess then there is no way that my friends and I did a 10 mile downwinder In which I self landed my 6m in that wind and then grabed my buddies kites, nah couldn't happen. These are the conditions (this being the extreme end of it) that I am demanding reliable performance out of my gear. Believe it or not the 4m was alot of fun and reacted like any other kite in appropriate wind.

WTF is up with the Penis Pumps

I asked for visual evidence of somebody actually killing it on foils and the only responses I got was two clips of a guy boosting, yeah that is not quite what I was looking for. Worse off those were posted by a pro of a pro and it was nic nac stuff that half the guys I ride with can do on any used sle out there. Tone questioned the validity of my post and the average foil rider whom I am asking for answers just started talking about Penis Pumps.

so PMU may not go about it the right way but you guys can't prove him wrong with anything worth looking at.


Read what I said, foils for me are lightwind kites....

I ride tubes in strong winds, but pulling some graph out of your ass doesn't prove to me you were out in 55 knot gusts..

55 knots is nearly hurricane force winds


rotflmfao...if only you knew instead of misinformed reaching.

1st...crash sure doesn't need anyone coming to his defense, but he's a good friend of mine and no poser. there's a lot of posers on this thread and forums, but crash rode that day in the winds mentioned with friends around the region. he's also one of the best riders around and if anyone wants to post vids and compare to his, i'm sure he'd oblige.
2nd...foils collapse. ride towards them aggressively and fast and they will collapse. when foils collapse, you never know if you're getting a back breaker when i reopens or a bridle mess due to a pretzeled kite.
3rd...i also would like to see a video of non-pros riding in 30+ winds. just because a kite has triple depower may actually make it more twitchy in gusty winds unless in the hands of a very experienced rider. 1st generation small bows were a nightmare due to huge huge depower, now they are much more stable and easier to ride.
4th...tubes fall out of the sky in 10-20 winds? huh? maybe if you are a newbie and have no clue how to fly a kite. wrong.
5th...anyone who starts a thread not named PMU, but calls out PMU is owned by PMU. As crash says...his style isn't the best, but for sure he has a leg up on most of you guys or girls.
6th...i really like to see solid proof on things and will eat my words if someone can video prove otherwise on the stability of foils by a large group of people, not just by one pro or a few good riders. i've been riding for 10 years and have yet to see one single 8m or smaller foil out when I'm riding in strong winds. OH...I take it back. I saw a 3m B3 by a friend in Milwaukee back in 2002.

Done for now...let the bashing begin.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:00 am 
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hey Bobby..

1st I agree foil collapse same as tube ..
2nd wind drop day 10 to 20 kn. means ... wind picks up and dies ... the clever ones got it .. I didn't say generally wind range 10 - 20 kn.
will go over my old videos when was day like that and friend of mine was re-launching, self rescuing him self several times, while my kite didn't touch the water....If I'm lucky I still have them ... if not you have to trust me as I trust you that you and your friends were riding in 55 knots wind
3rd I'm not talking only about kiteboading, compere the performance of kites on land and snow too.. not only water ... backcountry snowkiting, high mountain snowkiting ... etc.

peace


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:18 am 
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what is the point of this thread?

argue for the sake of arguing?

refine our generalization skills?



Its Christmas time, this is lame, be happy. ride what ever fits your style.

There is a tons of awful inflatable kites out there. tons of great ones too.

and there is even several really great foils foils out there and a lot of crappy ones too.

Also, just because you like something doesn't mean everyone else will. if that was the case then why would there be more then one style of kite out there? don't be a fool and lump all inflatable kites into 1 category vs all foil kites in the other. that's just blatant ignorance and kite racism.

I learned on foils, flew them for a few years. I have inflatables right now. but I may own a foil again someday. some of them can be really nice in the right conditions or if you're into snowkiting they can be really convenient for hiking into remote locations.

pump me up sounds like someone who hates danglers (what foils really excel at)

or maybe he's even a foil kiter himself and using reverse psychology and negative publicity to promote foil conversation on kiteforum?

who knows.....


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:22 am 
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also something I didn't learn until a friend finally confronted me.


only foil kiters call inflatables "tube kites"

and

it does have a negative connotation and is very annoying to most/anybody who flies a main stream SLE/Inflatable kite.

just some friendly advice.

Merry Christmas everybody, hope you get what you want!


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:44 am 
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crash&burn wrote:
...
Image
...
Quote:
How would a comparable foil react to the 55 knot gusts my kite was getting blasted with?


I reckon max force 7, i.e. max 33 knots.
Image

Surely less than Beaufort 8 !
Image

And even less than this @ 48 to 55 knots:
Image

"Stop the lies! Stop the exaggerations! Stop the propaganda" :jump: :jump: :jump:


Last edited by alexrider on Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:22 am, edited 14 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:51 am 
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C Johnson wrote:
...
it does have a negative connotation and is very annoying to most/anybody who flies a main stream SLE/Inflatable kite.

Ha ha! :lol: Who is trying to give a negative connotation to what? Just look at the subject title of the thread.
Foil riders should be the ones annoyed, but they apparently have stronger character than tube kites riders and don't mind being seen as aliens.
:jump:


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:54 am 
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alexrider wrote:
crash&burn wrote:
Quote:
How would a comparable foil react to the 55 knot gusts my kite was getting blasted with?


That picture : hardly a Beaufort Wind scale gale, surely less than 40 knots!
"Stop the lies! Stop the exaggeration!"


Read C&B's post properly ram boy: Beaufort (or any other wind scale) average 40 knots incorporates gusts to 55 k +. Riding in 55 knots ain't easy - kudos. Couldn't be done on a ram air.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:32 am 
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Pump me up wrote:
crash&burn wrote:
Quote:
How would a comparable foil react to the 55 knot gusts my kite was getting blasted with?

That picture : hardly a Beaufort Wind scale gale, surely less than 40 knots!
"Stop the lies! Stop the exaggeration!"

Read C&B's post properly ram boy: Beaufort (or any other wind scale) average 40 knots incorporates gusts to 55 k +. Riding in 55 knots ain't easy - kudos. Couldn't be done on a ram air.

Perhaps a Peter Lynn would do a better job than a FS in gutsy gusty winds in excess of 35 knots, but a ram air can handle anything that a tube can.
PMU: you should properly read my post which was about exaggerating wind strength.
At 55 knots the wind strength will pull the kite two and a half times as much as at 35 knots.
I doubt anyone can handle a 6 meter kite in 50+ knots. 6, to me, is about right for 35 knots.

"Stop the lies! Stop the exaggeration!"


Last edited by alexrider on Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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