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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:20 pm 
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From the months and months of noise about foils that has been presented in ten different threads here it's pretty clear that the foil market is strongest in the "old guy/big guy, lightwind, mowing the lawn" category. That is obviously making the majority of Flysurfers sales these days. I learned on foils and rode several types of them for some time.
......But at this point, my biggest kite is a 12M Wainman Boss and I am very glad I don't have to use a giant foil to mow the lawn. There is no way in hell any current foil/cell is gonna feel as fun as the tube kite I'm flying now. But I am glad that the old guys do have something to fly when it's ten mph and I'm riding my bike! :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:37 am 
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crash&burn wrote:
thank you bob,


To clarify, I did say gusts to 55 and when they came it sounded like a jetliner landing over my head. I wasn't out there rippin the sh-t out of it either. It was survival kiting but as long as I kept in check with my kite I was in control of my situation the whole time.

I want to know if foils would handle it and PMU came up with my exact worries
Quote:
The fact is that ram airs become progressively less rideable and more dangerous as the wind picks up. Because they lack internal rigidity, they have the following problems in high winds:
1) Tendency to collapse asymmetrically in gusty conditions, often leading to explosive openings in the middle of the wind window.
2) Tendency to surge to the edge of the window, luff, and collapse.
3) Tendency to sit deeper in the window, making them harder to depower and use edging to control power.


Somebody immediately dismissed this as rubbish

so if that is rubbish then somebody post some pics or video, some visual evidence of foils aggressively handling high winds, waves if ya got em. Like I said before please no pro's overpowered and boosting, this does not require overall aggressive kite flying(except the loops the guy does to keep his kite with him) I want to see full use of the window.

based on the lack of posts with any weight to them PMU's perception of foils is becoming more valid.


Thanks C&B. For an objective assessment of problems associated with ram airs in gusty conditions (caused by a lack of internal rigidity), check out http://www.foilzone.com/phpbb3/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

Cheers,

PMU


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:43 am 
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No offence Bob, but you said
"1) just to be 100% clear, a modern HD LEI doesn't collapse. It has a rigid frame. Rigid frames keep their shape better. Show me a modern HD LEi with the wind tips tucking or completely collapsing please."

but the rigid frames keeps them in the air or it's a wind which makes the kite fly ... the rigid frame keep the shape but not the kite in the air ... let me know if I'm wrong ...
I'm talking about collapsing in low winds ... got the raw video of light wind day when I rode and modern HD LEI couldn't launch and if so when collapsed and crashed in water.

please read the post carefully as I said I agree in super strong wind and gusty conditions the LEI perform better, foil cells do better job in low wind ... need proof of it??


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:43 am 
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Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
No offense taken.

You're really talking about kites falling out of the sky. I'm not.

A few of us are talking about high wind riding and performance and this has nothing to do with light winds.

In all my examples I talk about collapsing meaning the kite looses it's SHAPE, crumples up or has tip tuck. Then having it reopen right in the power zone or having a tangles mess. In any event, all these factors concern me especially from a performance standpoint in high winds.

Light winds? Yea...the FS big kites work for sure or certain riders.

I'm out.

bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:07 am 
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Location: Kite Naked - Shinn & Wainman Hawaii
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBlWHkoX ... ata_player


Wonder what kites these guys fly?


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:07 am 
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toyletbowl wrote:

wow...some of you guys need to read and understand better what we are saying.

@Kami...we're talking about small kites in strong, gusty crappy winds. Come back to us when you are willing to talk to the topic.

@dulloid...1) just to be 100% clear ...Speed 2 15m


:nono:


Last edited by Kamikuza on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:15 am 
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toyletbowl wrote:
In all my examples I talk about collapsing meaning the kite looses it's SHAPE, crumples up or has tip tuck. Then having it reopen right in the power zone or having a tangles mess. In any event, all these factors concern me especially from a performance standpoint in high winds.

And so the "rigid" frame of the LEI is always open to the wind ... it's always interesting to watch LEIs stall at the edge of the window then roll like a tumbleweed back into the powerzone. YOINK!

If you only argument is that an LEI is rigid and so is far less likely loose it's shape then we can do nothing but agree with you, as it IS a fact.

And yet ... LEIs still deform and invert, despite the rigid frame. And should the bladder lose pressure ...

http://www.kiteforum.tv/video/Bloody_Ki ... Lanes.html


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:25 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
toyletbowl wrote:

wow...some of you guys need to read and understand better what we are saying.

@Kami...we're talking about small kites in strong, gusty crappy winds. Come back to us when you are willing to talk to the topic.

@dulloid...1) just to be 100% clear ...Speed 2 15m

:lol:

:thumb:
This is the typical doublespeak of foil bashers: they avoid talking about comparable things.
Were they honest, they'd compare the big FS with LEi of similar power, but since that doesn't exist they still insist comparing the behaviour of Speeds with LEI made (by default - because there is no alternative ;-)) for stronger winds.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:31 am 
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I'm still sitting firmly in the "Right tool for the job" camp - I like my LEIs for some things, my FSers for other and my arcs for yet others.

Stronger winds is arc time :yes: there's your alternative :D


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:34 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
And yet ... LEIs still deform and invert, despite the rigid frame. And should the bladder lose pressure ...
http://www.kiteforum.tv/video/Bloody_Ki ... Lanes.html

Nice video, the riders in the back are very good.
For the poor guy smaching his kite all over the place, I would not say anything as one time in Lanzarote I tried to kite in condition above my level and I finished under the waves and my kite in the water. This ends with 1 broken line and the bar (yes the kite bar :!: ) broken in two pieces. :oops:


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