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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:59 pm 
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i don't know why but for some reason this forum seems to need to argue the benifits of foils v inflatable.

The fact is they are both good for different reasons and different styles/applications.

I had a cranken session last night on my 10 manta (depower foil) on the landboard in 20-25 knots it was freaken powered and good fun. gusty as shit but i was grinning like a crazed monkey. i was fangen 50+kphs with drift wood boulders and buildings meters down wind. It was dangerous, but fun. I had complete faith in my foil in those conditions not to be dragged into the drift wood.

A couple of weeks back i had an epic boosting wave session (similar height to the fs vid a few pages back) height was insane glide was epic, hooning up behind the wave boosting and landing on the wave face was insane, you could see my grin from the beach. I was flying the 11m ozone edge in similar 20-25 knot wind.

Now the 10m manta is about the same power than the 11m edge so its a fair comparison sle v foil high aspect sle high aspect foil. 08 manta v 09 edge. I'm compitent at flying both.

So which one wins?

The edge has more depower, faster and smooth as indeed. boosting is insane.

The manta has less depower, is more powered (obviously) but thats a good thing, the power melts away when you slow down. Boosting has less height but glide is far superior. The touch down on the manta is soft and battery smooth every time with the edge you come down alot faster and need to time the re-direct alot better to get a buttery smooth landing.

When stopped and parked with the kite at the edge of the window the manta is far more stable and wont fall out of the sky if you let go of the bar.

Which one do i prefer? in trueth the glide of the manta gives me the biggest grin factor. But ripping it up in 4m swell in 25 knots on a fast inflatable pretty damn close second!! Horses for courses. I'll use my foils/inflatables when the conditions demand.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:43 am 
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Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
Ventman wrote:
Seriously.

I just read thru this thread, and the LEI faction is comparing new LEI kites to 3 year old Flysurfer designs. THe Speed 2 had stability issues, but things have moved on since then. The FS kites I have flown recently are just as stable as any modern LEI I have. So if you compare just be fair.

One could also look at the 2007 and 2008 North Rebels and "Judge" all LEI Kites to be unstable in High Winds. Then there are 2006 Waroos which would fold under certain conditions.

No System is perfect, but the Foil kites are not as bad as PMU or the others are saying. I think they should try some of the newer models and then rewrite their theories.

I would tend to agree that some LEIs have the edge in higher winds, but I have also seen that the modern foils can handle the conditions just as well and are not as unstable as most of the LEI faktion here are saying.


Good catch on comparing 3-4 year old Speed 2's to current kites. The only problem is I was comparing at that time FS S2's to the current year Cabrinha Switchblades which I think were the SB3's. Obviously both and all companies have evolved since then.

Reading most of the posts even from those who are strongly supporting Foils, Arc, etc., it still seems that in high winds most agree that LEI's are preferred.

From Oldenbroken...
If you wanna surf with the best of them, you are on an LEI.
If you're gonna compete at top level freestyle, you will be on an LEI.
If you wanna go to San Francisco Bay and be competitive at the race series, you are on an LEI.
If you wanna break the world speed record, you are on an LEI.
If you wanna ride in the very lightest of winds, ....get a giant Flysurfer.
Peter Lynn kites are great if you gotta have a kite that stays at zenith if you drop your bar.

I'd have to agree with most of the above from an observation standpoint seen around our region, etc. and I've also wondered why a kite like the Speed 3 doesn't dominate race courses and speed events.

Bob
www.kiteridersllc.com


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:17 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
And yet ... LEIs still deform and invert, despite the rigid frame.


Never had a tube kite invert...I must be flying the good ones! :P
Never had a tube kite deflate on the water...I must be really lucky.
I will admit that tube kites can fall out of the sky in 8-10 when the Flysurfer 21M stays up.
But I don't bother to ride in those conditions & I would never spend the money that a giant Speed costs.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:31 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
Peter Lynn, Flysurfer, HQ, etc, etc..... even in their latest greatest versions, just don't fly and turn with the speed and agility of the best LEI kites today.
.
If you wanna surf with the best of them, you are on an LEI.
If you're gonna compete at top level freestyle, you will be on an LEI.
If you wanna go to San Francisco Bay and be competitive at the race series, you are on an LEI.
If you wanna break the world speed record, you are on an LEI.
If you wanna ride in the very lightest of winds, ....get a giant Flysurfer.
Peter Lynn kites are great if you gotta have a kite that stays at zenith if you drop your bar.
This is not my opinion, it is a simple observation by looking around at the real world. :allbegood:

Have you actually flown the latest greatest PL? You can't fly them like an LEI but I think they'll surprise you in the speed and agility stakes ...

The observations are kind of relative but consider, if you dip a cup in the ocean, pull it out and look in - concluding that there are no fish in the ocean cos there are none in your cup is fallacious. So is your reasoning there ...

Oldnbroken wrote:
Kamikuza wrote:
And yet ... LEIs still deform and invert, despite the rigid frame.

Never had a tube kite invert...I must be flying the good ones! :P
Never had a tube kite deflate on the water...I must be really lucky.
I will admit that tube kites can fall out of the sky in 8-10 when the Flysurfer 21M stays up.
But I don't bother to ride in those conditions & I would never spend the money that a giant Speed costs.

Never had a tube deflate on me either, but from simple observations at least 20% of the locals kites had leaks this season ;)
My 2010 Crossbow must be a bad one then :D damn those cheap Made in China kites! :lol:

If the problem is that YOU don't want to ride in light winds, that's fine but leave off the twah logic - "anyone who don't ride like me is a gay retard" - cos I'd never ride in summer if I waited for the "good" winds :(
I like deep powder for snowboarding too but if I only went to the mountain when or where there was good powder, I'd never ride. And I'm certainly not going to walk down the groomed slope cos I only ride deep powder ... dead horse yeah I know :)

Plummet - it's more someone says "I like foils" and the haters have to jump in, knock them down and point out their points ... like you, I like the variety.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:55 am 
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I am, by no means, trying to knock light wind riding.......I have done a lot of it.
At this point, for me personally, after many, many light wind sessions in days of past, if it's too light for the Boss and Celeritas, it is not worth the bother. I just feel like my money was better spent on these two pieces of equipment for $1000 total than the cost of a giant Flysurfer kite, but that's just where I'm at right now. I am not knocking what you guys are doing, I think you should definitely find gear that works in your location. Chronically lightwind locations need a solution and a giant Flysurfer is a good answer. No argument there. I would love to demo a brand new PL kite, I'm sure I would enjoy it..... but something tells me that if they had changed so much as to rival the best tube kites, somebody would have been screaming their praises very, very loudly all over this forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:33 am 
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I can dig it :thumb: I don't ride my motorbike in the cold and wet any more and some would mock me for that :)

Who would want to shout about an arc around here? That'd be like going to the Holden forum and shouting about Fords no no wait that'd be like going to the Canon forum and shouting about how great the Pentax are OMFG those guys are way worse than we are :o

I have a confession though ... I've been wrong about arcs. I thought they had no bottom end but I was wrong - actually, my settings were wrong. Straps all tight, VPC set for max and it's a totally different beast - what a monster! I had the straps all out for the big wind days - if I'd had them set as I had today, it would have been carnage!
And what surprised me even more was that, once again, the LEIs were falling from the sky (2009 Cult 15, 2009 Bandit 15 x2) and I could keep the Synergy up by figure-8ing it. Lovely :)

Comparing my Phantom (the oldest arc I had) to the Synergy is such a difference - like comparing my Airush Lift to the Crossbow. Big change, and apparently even more from Synergy to Charger.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Quote:
@crash and toylet (especially crash), dude YOU are the poser here, even if you ride like frikin Aaron or Ruben, you are still a poser, good riders are mostly mellow and dont need to say or hear that they are good, they just ride, you comment and pump your ego (mayb its pump my ego up, prolly) all the time and now you post a photo of yourself in a neoprene suit POSING on the beach and say you ride in 55 knots, and both of you demanding foil riders to put up a video or photo of NONPRO, NONGOOD foil riders??????!!!!! riding in 55 knotsWTF? Let me wake your poser ass up, but YOU HAVE NOT PUT A VIDEO OR PHOTO OF A NONPRO, NONGOOD RIDER RIDING A LEI IN 55 OR EVEN STRONG WIND! You havent even put up anything else exept YOU POSING IN A NEOPREN ON THE BEACH! :DDD

So to sum it up you guys have not put anything on here that would show riding in nuking winds but you hammer foil riders coz they havent put a video....or w8 no they did post a video hahaha so funny, they actually did post a foil riding in super nuking winds....(this reminds me of the thread with the 10k bet, same fcking shit just different extremes)



thank you Tommy Dell for contributing so much to this topic.
the dude in the picture is not me, i am riding in the first pic I posted am behind the lens for the rest I posted the best visual evidence I had to try to validate my scenario( because I was called out) and sorry if I POSED out trying to do so.

I think its clear that I am not looking for people riding in 55 knots. Those are not desired riding conditions but they exist and having witnessed what properly piloted inflatables do in 9m, 7m, and higher wind wave riding I just want to SEE (not read) how a foil handles it. The videos home boy put up had none of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:02 pm 
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the synergy was more or less like a vegas, a soft C that could be used for everything.
the charger might be too much freestyle oriented, it act more like a Fuel than a vegas (aggressivity wise)....i will use it this winter on snow to get a better overlook....i will see if i ll get a more polyvalent kite or not after that...
i might go back to newbie kite like SLE/hybrids/flysurfer/bow, more polyvalent but less specialized.

wait and see.


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:37 pm 
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crash&burn wrote:

thank you Tommy Dell for contributing so much to this topic.
the dude in the picture is not me, i am riding in the first pic I posted am behind the lens for the rest I posted the best visual evidence I had to try to validate my scenario( because I was called out) and sorry if I POSED out trying to do so.

I think its clear that I am not looking for people riding in 55 knots. Those are not desired riding conditions but they exist and having witnessed what properly piloted inflatables do in 9m, 7m, and higher wind wave riding I just want to SEE (not read) how a foil handles it. The videos home boy put up had none of that.



haha ok crash, thats just like the time when i was on Mt.Everest (with my finger on the map) :jump: :lol: :remybussi:

I think eddys jump was impresive, it wasnt the biggest jump ever but still pretty dope!

And you say 55 knot conditions, 55 knots is +63mph, on your graphs there is a peak of maybe 55 knots, thats like a foil kiter saying that he rode in 0 wind(0knots) coz there was a lull of 0 wind at one time he was out so therefore he can ride in 0 knots :thumb: :roll: :rollgrin:


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 Post subject: Re: Ram Air Inferiority - Updated + Hyperlinks
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:04 pm 
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TommyDelly wrote:
crash&burn wrote:

thank you Tommy Dell for contributing so much to this topic.
the dude in the picture is not me, i am riding in the first pic I posted am behind the lens for the rest I posted the best visual evidence I had to try to validate my scenario( because I was called out) and sorry if I POSED out trying to do so.

I think its clear that I am not looking for people riding in 55 knots. Those are not desired riding conditions but they exist and having witnessed what properly piloted inflatables do in 9m, 7m, and higher wind wave riding I just want to SEE (not read) how a foil handles it. The videos home boy put up had none of that.



haha ok crash, thats just like the time when i was on Mt.Everest (with my finger on the map) :jump: :lol: :remybussi:

I think eddys jump was impresive, it wasnt the biggest jump ever but still pretty dope!

And you say 55 knot conditions, 55 knots is +63mph, on your graphs there is a peak of maybe 55 knots, thats like a foil kiter saying that he rode in 0 wind(0knots) coz there was a lull of 0 wind at one time he was out so therefore he can ride in 0 knots :thumb: :roll: :rollgrin:


good point, well made.


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